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Wednesday, July 11, 2012

FLDS Respect and Honesty, and Me


How honest are the FLDS and the attorneys they hire to represent them? I have no doubts about the utter dishonesty of the FLDS and their leadership. Who is that, by the way? Is it Warren Jeffs, since he is still the "president" of the company, and it IS a company. Is he still leading the FLDS' business?

Will Warren decide if Willie Jessop will or won't be written a check for $30 million after a recent court judgement? Or will Lyle Jeffs or John Wayman? Does anyone know who is running this organized crime family at this point? Is it being run from a state prison in Texas? Is it run from the YFZ?

For those of you who have never interacted, on any real life level, with active members of the FLDS, let me share a story with you.

On February 6, 2009 I traveled to the Tom Green County Courthouse, in San Angelo, to attend a hearing regarding a 12 year-old girl child in Texas custody, who was the identified victim of sexual abuse. She was the girl remembered best as the tiny child in the arms of Warren Steed Jeffs, pictured as the recipient of a deep kiss by her new "husband."

As I was getting out of my truck that day, another truck pulled in beside me, and out came two women and a man. One of the women was dressed professionally, and the other was obviously a member of the FLDS, whom I had never met. I walked some distance behind them, and the man was walking close to the FLDS woman. The two were in discussion. The professional looking woman was lugging her purse and some bags.

As the group of three reached the steps of the courthouse, I watched the man and FLDS woman start up the steps ahead of the woman I now presumed to be his assistant, since she struggled with the bags all by herself, all the way up the courthouse steps.

When I got to the top of the steps still behind them, the security guard inside the courthouse asked me to place my bag in the bin in front of me for x-ray, which I did. Then he asked if I had a cell phone, which I said I did.Then he asked me if I was an attorney, and I replied quite clearly so the group of the three in front of me could hear, "No. I'm not an attorney. I'm an anti-polygamy activist."

You could have heard a pin drop in the lobby of the courthouse. The three had stopped speaking and were staring at me. The guard explained I had to turn over my cell phone and I would sign to get it back, if I left the courthouse. I turned it over and filled in the log. Then I walked to the end of the table to wait for my bag to come through the xray machine. And I waited. Finally I said to the guard, "Excuse me but where is my green bag?" He looked at me, suddenly seeming uncomfortable and said, "I don't know. You don't have it?"

The feeling of panic that swept over me was almost indescribable as I frantically started looking around the lobby, and finally my eyes came to rest on the back of the man with the two women. There he was, standing in front of the elevator, holding MY BAG!

"He's got it!" I yelled, and pointed. The guard looked over at him and the man looked at the elevator door which was opening, and back to me, then chuckled and started walking back towards us at the x-ray table. He extended the bag out to my reach and said it was an honest mistake and he was just trying to help his friend carry things.

I took it back, standing there clutching it, and just flabbergasted at the audacity. I had, moments before, watched him completely ignore his assistant's struggles all the way up a flight of steep courthouse steps, and sheer seconds after finding out who I was, he was in possession of my bag heading for an elevator. And I was supposed to believe it was an honest mistake, because he possessed some sort of chivalrous, gentlemanly or mannerly nature? Not by my observation, he didn't.

Upon entering the court room where the hearing was to be held, I discovered the man, who had almost absconded with my bag, and the two women with him, had taken the seats at the table reserved for defendants.  I then sat right behind them on the first row. As the court room began to fill, the man decided to stand up and start introducing himself to people, "Hello, my name is Brett Pritchard, and I represent Barbara Jessop, and you are?"

The room was becoming ever more crowded and Willie Jessop came in with an FLDS woman and they sat right behind me. Then Merril Jessop came in, and came and sat right next to me. I was behind Barbara, next to Merril and backed by Willie. Mr. Pritchard eventually looked over at me and asked me who I was, and I repeated that I was an anti-polygamy activist. He sat down in his seat, threw me a backwards glance and smiled, then jokingly asked me if I were going to jump up with a sign soon and start protesting in the courtroom. I leaned back, crossed my arms, smiled and said, "Oh, no sir. That's not my style. That's not my style at all."

That was the hearing where I watched Texas give that child to a polygamist relative. That was the hearing where I sat behind a woman who had knowingly and willingly handed her baby over to be raped by a pedophile, because she believes he is a "prophet." Did I think about reaching out and yanking her head backwards by that long braid? Heck yes! But I didn't do it.

I think the real question here, considering the record of the FLDS and those who work for them should be, 'What will they not do?'

I will leave it to the FLDS to decide what my style is, but no one, not the FLDS and not the state of Texas can say that I have not acted in a respectful manner, especially considering what I have so far got back for my efforts.

Written by: K. Dee Ignatin -  K. Dee is the Executive Director at Americans Against Abuses of Polygamy, a non profit organization.


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160 comments:

  1. How related are the AUB and the FLDS? Is the big difference the leadership?

    And is it true there is nudity in the marriage ceremonies --like when Kody married all his wives on Sister Wives? Just curious. Is it a private thing or something done in front of the entire wedding audience?

    Thanks for all that you do.

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    1. Hi Stella, thanks for your kind words. The AUB and FLDS have the same original roots. The AUB is run by a board of sorts, rather than a solitary leader known as the prophet. Yes, I have been in touch with one woman who has made it a mission of sorts to petition the leadership of the AUB to stop the nude ritual associated with their marriage ceremony. As of 2009, I know they were still conducting the marriage rite in the nude. This is why the ceremony is completely private, without friends or family present. Although it is private, it involves leaders of the church "anointing and blessing" the bodies [including the private parts] of the bride and groom.

      The AUB has also been involved in some creepy business dealings. John Llewellyn, a former member, writes a blog and has published a couple of books. Several years back the courts found the leadership of the AUB had stolen more than a million dollars from one of its members, and they were ordered to repay the money, although I have no idea if they ever have done so. The "religion" practiced by the AUB is indistinguishable from the FLDS, with both using the original version of the Book of Mormon as their guide. The mainstream LDS version of the Book of Mormon has been changed and edited more than any other religious text in history in the short time since Joseph Smith founded the faith. Notable changes include the teaching that people of color are the cursed decedents of Ham, and that only white people are acceptable enough before their god to reach the celestial kingdom. Those who are good enough to make it to this level of heaven will be the masters of those who are not at that level. In other words, they will be the slaves of the worthy in the next world.

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    2. I love it when you are here! i had NO IDEA the marriage ceremony was in the nude. Does that include the other wives?

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    3. How creepy is that! CREEPY

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    4. Sorry, but the marriage ritual is not in the nude! There is a private ritual "washing" before the ceremony where those about to be married have a ritual dabbing of water and anointing with oil (only 2 women present with the bride to be) and the marriage ceremony is completely clothed.

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    5. Anon 10:23 I am quoting my source word for word here: "both men and women are completely nude with absolutely no covering. I can't even imagine how violated these people must feel during this. In every interview I have done, the women break down sobbing in tears because of the trauma endured during this nude ritual. Pleas to their leaders to respect their modesty have fallen on deaf ears."

      I'm willing to be wrong. I've certainly never had any first hand experience, and am only going off what the source told me. Actually, I'd prefer to be wrong, lol.

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    6. Boots, I think you are amazing, and I am as anti polygamy as you are, having endured it myself. Of course you can only go on what you have been told, and I of course cannot be sure what other individuals have gone through. All I can speak to is my own experience. The marriage ceremony is preceded by a private "washing and anointing" (as in the LDS church). This takes place in a small curtained cubicle and the bride is present with two women (I assume the same happens for the men in another area). I am aware that this has been carried out in two different ways, one with a a loose white item of clothing (called a shield) covering the body, and on other occasions with nothing at all (very embarrassing and uncomfortable). When it happened to me it was a ritual dabbing of water (the private parts never touched) What took place was bad enough, if it had been any more intimate I might have walked out on the spot (maybe that would have saved me a lifetime of pain). I am prepared to believe that over-zealous women performing the ordinance might have gone even further with some candidates. I always assumed that the same happened to the men, but clearly I do not know the details of that. In the early days of Mormonism it wasn't just a token washing, the candidates got dunked naked in a full bath of water and scrubbed down.. Modern LDS women objected so much to certain aspects of the temple ordinances that the LDS church dropped quite a large amount of the "endowment." Anyway, after being dressed in the special undergarment, and having put on long white dresses for the women, or white shirts and pants for the men, the candidates then go to another part of the building where both men and women are gathered together (all clothed), and that is where the actual marriage ceremony takes place (again, fully clothed). I can see how there might be some confusion since the "washing and anointing" is considered an essential prerequisite to the marriage and definitely takes place with nothing on in many cases.

      This web site explains the changes in the mainstream LDS ordinances and include this

      "Procedures for the initiatory are revised such that initiates clothes themselves in the garment before entering the washing room, thus eliminating the final vestiges of ritual nudity (which had been curtailed by introduction of the shield, probably during the 1920s). Water and oil are applied to the head only, not to multiple parts of the body." http://www.ldsendowment.org/timeline.html

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    7. Should also add that I have no idea what goes on in the FLDS - judging on recent news anything could happen!

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    8. Anony 10:23, you are wrong. They certainly DO!

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    9. So if I'm understanding this correctly, there is an element of nudity contained in both the polygamous Mormon faiths and the mainstream LDS Mormons as well?

      For a faith containing such conservative values/morals, a nude "prologue" to a wedding ceremony certainly comes across as a double standard, at least in my opinion.

      I also have a question about the value of a marriage. The terms "church" and "temple" are both used to describe the house of worship in these faiths. Does a church wedding have less value than a temple wedding, or are they equally regarded? Also, is there a difference between a church and temple, or are the terms used interchangeably?

      Sorry for playing 20 questions here, but thanks to anyone who can shed a little light for me!

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    10. She-rah. No, churches and temples are not interchangeable. You have to be considered "worthy" to go into a temple - it's not open to all members, let alone outsiders. According to their theology you can only have an eternal marriage and get into the highest heaven if you have received all the temple rituals. Same thing with the mainstream LDS.

      Teresa, you must have experienced something different than I did.

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    11. ExAUB I was under the impression that the AUB doesn't actually use the word "church", that the Brown's only use it because it is a more "accessible" term to the general public. I have always heard the people called "the Group/Priesthood/Work" or some similar term; and the ordinance building referred to as the "OB". Is this not correct?

      @Teresa: Maybe it's just me, but even if I have the most trusted sources, I defer to sources that use the pronoun "I" (anon10:23) before those who use the pronoun "They"(Teresa).

      If you have actually endured this ritual yourself, please give more detail. If not, why contradict someone's own experience? Hmmm.

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    12. Linnet, you are right. AUB don't call themselves a church. I was talking about the difference between the actual buildings used, as in church (meeting house) versus Temple. And yes, AUB call their "temple" the "OB" or ordinance building. As for the actual organization, you are right again, they do refer to themselves as "the Group/Priesthood group/the work." When they say "the church" they are usually referring to the mainstream LDS church. There is a very confused theology about the mainstream LDS. AUB have in the past referred to it as being completely apostate, because the leaders gave up polygamy and gave the priesthood to men of African descent. However, Christine Brown's grandfather, Rulon Allred, liked to say that the church and the priesthood would be re-united after they were put back in order by God. I'm sure the LDS would be thrilled about that idea!

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  2. WoW! I guess they are not above anything! After the last post about the kitten, now they are stealing you bag? K. Dee, I always enjoy your posts!

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  3. K. Dee, your work is undeniably the most giving, caring, job one could have. Bless you.

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    1. Concerned is right, I'm the last person any of those women or girls would trust with their feelings on anything. Flora and I are about the equivalent of the boogie man in FLDS circles. Members of the FLDS are asked to regularly pray for our deaths. It was really hard not to reach out and jerk Barbara Jessop by the braid but of course I never would. If you have read Carolyn Jessop's book Escape, you know she is the same one who relentlessly beat her toddler son one night. Anon 2:59, I am glad someone was there for you when you were suffering. That is what most of us in this fight are here for, to make sure if someone is getting up the gumption to leave or think for themselves that they know they won't be alone. It is almost impossible to help a "victim," which is why we like to say we love "survivors!"

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    2. WE will be praying for your safety!!!!

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    3. Amen! We Will be praying you guys stay safe. Blessings to you!

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    4. Amen again, and I will be praying for the safety of you and others that give so much, and risk their life.

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  4. K. Dee, you keep your cool. I would be scared to death if an attorney stole my bag!

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  5. Does anyone know what happened to the girl? Is she 18 now?

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    1. What happened at that hearing?

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  6. K. Dee Is out today, but I encourage you to ask any questions you want, she will come and answer them!!!

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  7. SheRah-SkitsoSplitMindJuly 11, 2012 at 1:58 PM

    That is interesting. Stealing and intimidation. Wasn't it hard not to stangle that mother? Such a sad thing for a child to go through.

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    1. Sooo agree with you SheRah-Skitsoetc. Were you there as a child representative? I once went to a woman's shelter over an abusive husband. I didn't stay there, but one of the women came and held my hand all day. Can't tell you all how much that meant, I was in a new city with no one around. of course, Would never think it would be me in those shoes!
      Even if not, I am sure your prescense shook them up, and gave the girl some strength. God bless.

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    2. Anonymous, July 11, 2012 2:59 PM THis girl, like the majority of FLDS would have seen KD as the enemy. The girl has been taught that she is special to be chosen by Warren Jeffs and totally resented being treated as a victim. These little girls' minds have been so twisted they can't tell right from wrong.

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    3. May Be, but let's let K. Dee answer how any of the girls she's been near feel.

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  8. I recommend this interview:
    FLDS: inside the secret sect
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56jd4Jzs1LI&feature=related

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  9. Are you ever scared?

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    1. Yes, Kiki, I have been scared before, for sure. Nobody who finds dead kittens on their doorsteps remains completely unafraid. Nobody who is tailed by cars with Arizona or Utah plates thinks there is nothing going on, and no one who is harassed all over the road by an 18 wheeler with AZ tags, at speeds exceeding 90mph considers themselves completely safe. But we trust G-d is watching over us and we covet the prayers of our friends and supporters for our continued safety.

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    2. OMG how horrible. That should tell us all, no "religion" would do such a thing. Cult, yes. Will be praying for all of you.

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  10. I suspect that Brett Pritchard planned to rifle through the green bag for information that would be detrimental to his client, and would then return the bag he "accidentally" took. He might have planned to quickly look through the bag in private, e.g. in the elevator or men's bathroom. If he had tried to keep the bag, he would have easily been caught in the courtroom with it, since K. Dee was clearly going to the same place he was.

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    1. K. Dee, what do you think he wanted to do, steal it to rifle through your notes, and/or have you lose them?

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    2. Chickenz and Anon 1:03, I'm not sure what he would have done with the information in my bag. I had a lot of stuff in there, from a picture taken of an obviously physically abused child in the window of Willie Jessop's home in Cedar City, during a raid looking for Warren Jeffs while he was on the lamb, to a complete list of their cemetery showing it is comprised of 50% children's bodies. I think it was more about intimidation than anything. They are real good at that game.

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    3. Do you think now the DOJ is there, they will help you and Flora and others?

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    4. After what happened after the raid on the YFZ, no, I do not trust the feds to do anything. While I trust the Texas Rangers with my life, there is no one working for the federal government I would trust at all.

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    5. A question for the guest writer:

      Regarding the document in your bag with the cemetery listings. How come so many children are deceased? Is this because of the need to keep the girls outnumbering the boys so the polygamous cycle can continue?

      Thank you for sharing your story, and for taking the time to answer our questions and comments.

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    6. Anon July 13, 2012 7:54 PM

      No, I don't believe their is any systematic murder of children in the FLDS. In my opinion life for these children is simply more dangerous because there are so many of them. If there is one man, four women and 25 children, who do you think is usually given the responsibility for watching the toddlers? most of the children accidentally run over were toddlers. I think those four women probably have their hands full with cooking, cleaning, laundry and baby tending. That leaves the older children responsible for the younger children.

      The high infant mortality rate is probably due to deformities and disease caused by incestuous inbreeding. High infant mortality is common in most polygamous societies, along with poverty and child molestation.

      Okay, that said, there are 6,000 people in these two towns and there has never been a case of domestic violence prosecuted. Ever. Does that sound normal to you? Do you believe that in a home with three or four women sharing one man and dozens of children that no one ever loses their cool? Ever? Me either. I have absolutely no doubt that a few of the dead children in Colorado City and Hildale were the victims of abuse. It makes sense statistically, especially with their known practices of breaking the babies from crying. But since the town Marshal's office is the only law enforcement in town...we will never know who they were. And thanks to the musical grave markers, well, that seals the deal.

      One case that has always bugged me badly is a three year old who is listed as having died from drinking hydrogen peroxide from the family refrigerator. I have so many questions about that case. Why was the hydrogen peroxide in a refrigerator? How could the three year old have been completely unsupervised long enough to open the door get it out and consume it? Why would he have chug-a-lugged something so nasty and foamy when I had trouble getting my toddler to take a single teaspoon of grape dimatap? Why didn't they get him to a doctor in time for a poison that is so easy to remedy? On and on my questions about this little boy go...and I'll never know any of the answers. I'll also never have answers about the dozen toddlers run over in the roads there.

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    7. That is an absolutely chilling answer to the cemetery question. Not just about the incest and inbreeding, but the run-overs as well. Do the residents of these communities also have to follow the state regulations for Driver's Ed and vehicle safety instruction before obtaining a driver's license?

      I don't think I want to know their practices of breaking the babies from crying...

      I can certainly understand the peroxide case keeping you up at night. So senseless and with no explanation either. I can't imagine the other horrors you have encountered in your advocacy work. Well done to you in your fight to make a difference!

      On a more pleasant note, can you share any success stories of being able to rescue abused persons and helping to rehab them back into society? Of course you can't use real names, but a "Jane Doe" treatment of a true-life story from your own perspective would be a riveting read.

      Many thanks!

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    8. SheRah, "Do the residents of these communities also have to follow the state regulations for Driver's Ed and vehicle safety instruction before obtaining a driver's license?"

      NO! The FLDS make sure most of the vehicles that the women use are unregistered. That way, if a woman actually leaves the town she is highly likely to be pulled over by law enforcement for lack of registration. This gives them time to catch up to her and bring her back. Remember, local law enforcement, the "Town Marshal's Office" is ALL loyal FLDS. They simply ignore the vehicles without any current registrations being driven all over the two towns by the women. Men and boys have drivers licenses and some of the trusted women do as well. Otherwise they are free to ignore all sorts of vehicle laws, including laws about child safety seats and children riding in the backs of pickup trucks. Anyone driving through Colorado City can see gaggles of children riding in the back of trucks, even though it is against the law. They also drive ATV's and ride horses all over town. My friends and I were laughing about some pictures taken, which in reality were no laughing matter... But in the pictures there was what looked like, maybe a 12 or 13 year-old boy driving an ATV down the road, with at least four other children, clinging like monkeys for dear life all over it, and one of the smaller boys was holding...wait for it..a CHAIN SAW!

      Flora is the one who goes in and rescues folks. The mission of the AAAP is to educate the public to the realities of polygamy in America. Flora's organization is the Child Protection Project and you can learn a lot about her efforts by watching episodes of Mike Watkis' coverage of it called "The Polygamy Diaries" and "Colorado City: The Underground Railroad." A lot of those are available on YouTube.

      A lot of this ties into the work I am trying to accomplish here in Texas, to make sure they cannot get away with the same lawless behavior here.

      If anyone is interested in keeping up with what we are doing, please feel free to email me at Mediamanager1@gmail.com or contact me on Facebook @ K Dee Ignatin.

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    9. Now that's something, isn't it? thank you so much for your info. I will be checking the sites out!

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    10. That is so hard to believe, and I believe you! We have never seen anything like that in FL. So they don't get stopped because the cops are F.L.D.S.?
      It does sounds like there is quite a bit of abuse in that area. All groups have abuse, no particular one is immune, however, from what you said and what I've read, many mishaps occur that are not investigated, nor publicized. Why do they not allow you into the baby cemetery? The more you educate us, the more maybe one day, one of us can help.

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  11. San Angelo VisitorJuly 11, 2012 at 3:56 PM

    I live in San Angelo, and my husband is in law enforcement. He was assigned, several nights, to guard the judge's home during the trial, as she was receiving death threats. Other law enforcement friends were at Ft. Concho when the FLDS women and children were there, and they said it was interesting how every girl over the age of about ten would say she was "18" if asked. This is not some quaint little group. Warren Jeffs controls everything from what they learn in "school," to how they fix their hair.

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    1. Lobotomized (Claddagh Claw)July 11, 2012 at 4:20 PM

      What I keep wondering and sensing from the little information I can get, is that W.J., though in jail, is still their prophet and the one in charge? Does he still totally control that town more or less like he did before? Are 12-17 year olds still getting married to men twice their age (or older)?
      Also, what is with the meters of hair? Why?

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    2. It's considered a sin for women to cut their hair - it's also essential for one of their religious ordinances.

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    3. You know, I've never quite got why that doesn't stand in Christian society. I know it's not in the New Testament, but still it's always made me think.

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    4. Lobotomized (Claddagh Claw)July 11, 2012 at 8:13 PM

      I am 100% sure there is nothing in the Old Testament that prohibits a woman from cutting her hair.

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    5. 1 Corinthians 11:15

      But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

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    6. There is something in the Bible regarding women having long hair and how it is their crowning glory (I Corinthians 11:15 that "if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her, for her hair is given to her for a covering).
      and that men should cut theirs short (1 Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?). Though that doesn't exactly explain Jesus' coiff...

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    7. I have a cousin that is some type of Baptist. She don't cut her hair, wear make-up and ALWAYS wears dresses or skirts. My mom was raised in the Nazerene church and had had to dress the same way. Luckily My mom was rebellious and raised me differently.

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    8. Somewhow, I feel it is another type of control, all looking alike. K. Dee, why is that?

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    9. SA visitor, yes, he controls all aspects of life, including dress, appearance, sexual activity and hygiene. They essentially worship him as a sort of demi-god. Anon 1:04, yes! The whole idea of having women dress alike is a form of control and a way to suppress any individuality. It is absolutely no different than Muslims who require women to dress in the burqa, which also suppresses any individuality or sense of the self as unique, special or independent.

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  12. Domestic Violence Shelter staff routinely hear the most unbelievable and heinous accounts of abuse.
    Abuse that most often is inflicted behind closed doors, but sadly, some forms of it can take place in full view of family and friends.
    It is an insidious form of torture that just destroys bodies AND souls.

    Unfortunately, laws governing prosecuting DV vary from state to state. In many states, a woman must actually press charges and/or have documentation/evidence of physical abuse for a lasting conviction.

    And in this child's case, if a parent is present who will not validate the charges, and even worse, refute the charges, with no other available corroborating witnesses, that child could not be rescued at that time.
    SO SO SAD !!! And so, so WRONG !!!

    K.Dee, thank god there are people like you who are willing to walk right into the lions' mouth and stare them down. Bless you and your mission!!!

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    1. Yes, thank god for you.

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    2. Did you grow up in the AUB or FLDS? If so, is your family still in the faith? I pray you didn't have to endure too much, and your family is with you now. Love to hear your story.

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    3. Thanks again for your kind words. Your prayers are very much appreciated. I was not raised in polygamy. I became involved only because in 2005 I took a position as a staff reporter for a radio broadcast network in Mohave County and began to cover the FLDS story. I met Flora for the first time at a luncheon organized by some local women in Lake Havasu City. Of course, being from Texas, I was completely stunned by what I saw going on up there. I was horrified by what I saw. Before my arrival, as a conservative, I would have never in a million years called myself or considered myself a "feminist." Since then I have very proudly taken on the mantle of a "conservative feminist." If you would care to read more about my experiences in Mohave County during that time, you can visit my blog at http://tripleap.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html and read from the archives. That's a good place to start.

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  13. WarrenJeffsisaDoofJuly 11, 2012 at 6:02 PM

    Could you imagine being forced to marry someone like Warren Jeffs? Not only is he abusive, but he's less than nothing to look at. Just goes to show you that the meek looking among us could be the most dangerous...

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    1. No! Or any of his cronies. Who gets them all now? Who are the selected few men? Quite sure they are the ones doing his dirty deeds...done dirt cheap!LOL (old song)

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    2. Lobotomized (Claddagh Claw)July 11, 2012 at 7:53 PM

      I don't think these women are even taught the concept of beauty, or attraction. Doesn't mean they don't have it though (as Flora Jessop said: just because you're raised this way and aren't allowed to feel it doesn't mean there is not jealousy)...
      Mariages are nowadays all arranged by the prophet anyways, they are not allowed to choose whom they marry, nor the guy nor the girl. They are just told that in X days they will marry such and such. Saying NO would be rejecting the prophet and therefore rejecting God. Men lose their priesthood, women lose their community, their family, their honor, everthing. You can not go against the prophet=God...
      It must be awful for them... Especially since the women are basically incubators and housekeepers and mmust do what their husbands tell them to. Warren J. is a pervert, a tyrant and an awful person. The only positive thing I can imagine aobut being married to him vs. some random 50 year old is that he has like 100 wives (between 80 and 100 approximately, that was several years ago) so the rotation takes very very long so in all practicality you would hardly see him (he also used to travel a lot all over), so if you were lucky the times that you got to see him you wouldn't even have to be with him.

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    3. WarrenJeffsisaDoofandaPeeperJuly 11, 2012 at 9:39 PM

      That could be very good indeed. It's very sad that , in 2012, there are still women who are taught that they have no other choices in life but to marry someone ____x their senior, cook, clean, and have children.

      I can't remember if I read it here or not, but evidently Warren Jeffs was well known from a young age to be a voyeur and his neighbors were told to keep their blinds and drapes closed because of it.

      Loboto (CC): I love your new alias!

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    4. @WarrenJeffsisaDoofandaPeeper There's a heartbreaking clip on Youtube of an interview with Warren Jeffs' nephew, who claims he was sexually abused by his uncle as a child. The family also strongly suspects that another of their sons (who committed suicide a while ago) was also raped by Jeffs. Although there's no way to prosecute Jeffs for this-- it happened decades ago and there's no real proof it happened-- there's no doubt in my mind that it's true.

      This is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIEbowmjNSQ.

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    5. Post on this here:
      http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/harsh-rules-sex-assault-described.html

      That being said, let's stay on topic of asking K. Dee her insight into these type of things.

      Delete
  14. Found this online about Brett Prichard

    "Do not goto Brett Pritchard law firm in Killeen Texas.. They will steal your money and sell you out'. WHAT A CROOK

    If you want to spend countless hours and dollars with NO RESULTS then Brett Pritchard is the place to go/.

    What they did to me is bait and switch:.

    Every other Attorney I talked with said Brett Pritchard was a REAL LOSER and NO ONE RESPECTS HIM".

    http://brett-pritchard-law-firm.pissedconsumer.com/brett-pritchard-killee-texas-attorney-aka-crook-20090804151797.html

    Don't know if this is true, but it's interesting!

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    Replies
    1. Texas, of course. hmmm.

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    2. It says a lot that the nearest lawyer who would take their case is in Kileen-for those of you who aren't from West Texs (I am) that's a long, long drive (past lots and lots of more scrupled law firms) to reach San Angelo.

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    3. It also says a lot that Pritchard's law degree is from Texas Tech. Attorneys refer to this law school as a "Third Tier Toilet", meaning it has an embarrassingly low ranking among law schools in annual studies. By contrast, the University of Texas in Austin, also a public college, consistently makes the top tier annually. In other words, law students attend Tech if UT rejected their applications.

      So, if this is the best that the FLDS could get to represent them, it says quite a bit about how they're perceived as potential clients.

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  15. How anyone could look at the picture of this little girl and think this old ass man kissing her is ok?? I dont care how brainwashed or into the religion her mother, and i use rhat term losely, should be put under the jail. I do think maybe its a stretch saying rhe browns are as bad as warren jeffs. I dont like kody AT ALL but i dont think hes trying to marry 12 year olds.......yet

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    1. Makes no sense a boy that has gone with a girl for a LONG time with permission of her parents, she was 16, he was 22; but the laws as they are, when she got pregnant, her parents filed charges and now he's on the sex offender list the rest of his life.
      K.Dee, my question is, why do they get away with this, or the Browns on TV for that matter?

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    2. BurntToast, The Browns and tens of thousands of others in Utah and Arizona get away with this, because the mainstream LDS majority have no stomach for prosecuting people for the very things their own forefathers did, and they still believe to be a holy ordinance that they themselves will be practicing in the afterlife. In other words, they are utterly corrupt to the crime of polygamy. The mainstream LDS still practice the "sealing" of multiple women to their important male members inside their temple ceremonies. Just as they practice the baptism of the dead, they practice the marriage "for time and all eternity" to qualified men. For instance, Marie Osmond, a mainstream LDS member, has been married and divorced multiple times. She was, however, only married once [the first time] inside the Salt Lake City temple. After that, her marriages were all civil marriages. Now, her first ex-husband, would be allowed to remarry inside of the temple, because males can be sealed to multiple women for time and all eternity but women only once. In other words, the mainstream LDS practices "spiritual polygamy," for the afterlife. Osmond has since remarried her first husband, who she was originally sealed to for time and all eternity anyway. Even if they had never reconciled, the church would have left her sealed to him for the afterlife. How depressing!

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    3. Ah Ha! That's what some thought about some politicians that are LDS and got shot down. Thanks for telling us this.

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    4. You can have your sealing cancelled. My brother & his ex-wife have had their sealing cancelled. The church might have left Marie's sealing on record, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it would have been recognized in the next life. We always say that Heavenly Father straighten things out on the other side.

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  16. So K. Dee, they keep the young girls, and throw out any smart, good looking men?
    That leaves the Dum Dums (sorry) to become new prophets?

    here's what they do to the boys i found:
    http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/polygamy-natural-ratio-of-men-to-women.html

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    Replies
    1. Pickedaname, Brent Jeffs book, Lost Boy is an excellent read on what happens to excess males. The Utah AG has more than 400 signed sworn affidavits on his desk from underage FLDS boys who were abandoned or driven out of Colorado City and Hildale while still children. He has never once prosecuted any of the parents for child endangerment or abandonment. Not once.

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  17. Haven't been here for awhile, boy do I have a ton to catch up. Always enjoy seeing K. Dee, Troy, and others who teach so much. Now I must go read- LOVE this BLOG

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  18. That picture is very disturbing.

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  19. Mister Sister, did you post a link to this story earlier? I've read it before. I'm trying to figure out where I came across it. I do sometimes link to some stories on my own, often from the Salt Lake paper, but a few other places, too. At any rate, it's infuriating that the child of rape, I believe the same one on one of the tapes, raped in the sanctuary in front of others no less, is turned back over to the same family and clan. Unspeakable. In what secular court is this done elsewhere in the U.S.? I can't believe it would happen here in my area. And if it did, the judge could kiss his job goodbye. Oh wait, unless the judge is elected from the tiny fringe of lunatics that he returned the molested child to.

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  20. I see many of you are visiting K. Dee's other post - Polygamist Cemeteries -
    http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/polygamists-cemetery-why-are-so-many.html
    She has an update on the cemeteries that we will be posting soon!
    This is a new post on SWB; however you might have read her post easily, she's very popular on the web.

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  21. I guess this is why these communities drive out ex-FLDS, LDS, Christians, agnostics, anyone who isn't one of "them". Kill animals, torture cats, make sure it happens on the land of the "others", make sure your law enforcement, judges, teachers, are your "own" and there is little any one else can do. It takes a steady drumbeat of intimidation to ensure that your "own" are not held accountable for their crimes.

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  22. WJisaDoofandTomCruisehasBadThetansJuly 11, 2012 at 9:46 PM

    I'd be much more comfortable if they gave custody of that girl to Tom Cruise...and that ain't sayin much.....one waco group or another....same difference

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  23. I teach 12 year olds and I have to say, they ARE NOT ready for this type of commitment! I hear their conversations and see their development on a daily basis. How could any adult see this behavior and think they are ready for marriage and all the emotional turmoil it brings? Most adults can't make marriage work, think of a poor kid. This makes me cry. I work my tail off to protect, educate and nurture kids so that they will become productive citizens in society. In my career I have had to report 3 different molestations. I saw what it did to those poor, pitiful girls and it has NEVER, EVER, EVER left me. This sicko needs to be castrated and well... his virginity (anal) needs to be ripped out of him like he does to these poor kids. I think I have a couple items in my garage that would fit nicely into the devirginizing of Warren-sicko-Jeffs.

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  24. I teach high school and I don't think that most of our 18 years olds would be ready for a situation such as this. These poor poor girls and lost boys!

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  25. I don't care how "uneducated" these women/mothers are - even animals know enough to PROTECT their young, and these sick @#$% are handing theirs over to pedophiles!!! My daughter is 17 and I'm scared to death at the thoughts of her going out of state to college next year. I cant phathom thinking it's ok to hand your child off to some sick @#$% or even to a young couple like MGM & Grody courting that 17 year old. Someone like this Warren Jeffs coming near my 12 year old would be meeting Mr. Winchester for sure!! And yes, I understand indoctrination, I was raised by my grandparents in a strict Catholic household. I still practice my religion, but not everything it teaches. I am full aware of all of the wrongs in my religion. So I don't accept that as an excuse. Ugh! This just infuriates me!! Those poor innocent kids. :(

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    1. I totally agree Hockey Mom. When my cat had kittens if I was holding one of them. My cat sat right in front of me and watched the whole time. When I put the kitten down my cat picked it up in it's mouth and hid it. I strongly believe in mothering instinct. My father was an alcoholic and abusive. There were a few times he went after me. My mom warned him to leave me alone and when he didn't she picked up a knife and went after him. She didn't care if he hurt her. all she wanted to do is protect me. That's why I don't understand these women. I know they are brainwashed but leting someone rape your child makes them just as guilty.

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    2. Not excusing what the mothers did (do), but some "food for thought"...

      -They probably don't have the same conception of pedophelia as those of us in mainstream society. At 12 years old, many girls have gone through at least the preliminary stages of puberty and no longer have a "child's body" (I use quotes because, of course, a 12 year is a child so any body she possesses is by definition a child's body, but you know what I mean...) The concept of teenhood or adolescence is actually fairly modern. In the past, the jump from being a child to an adult was much quicker than it is today. Since the FLDS models itself after more traditional social patterns, its members might not think of a 12 year old as a child the way the rest of us do, but rather, just a very young woman (albeit a *very* young woman). From what I understand, as bad as the FLDS church is, marriages to 12 year olds aren't the norm. I could imagine that the marriage to this child was rationalized as, "Yeah, it's kind of weird that she's so young but she's mature for her age."
      -As for your growing up Catholic: You have to understand that no matter how heavily you were influenced by your parents' faith, it's unlikely that you were truly indoctrinated the way these people are. Maybe I'm wrong, but you probably didn't grow up in a compound ENTIRELY surrounded by other Catholics. You probably had the chance to meet and befriend people of other faiths, watch TV, go to the movies, go to school (a real school, not some bullshit home school thing or whatever they do). I think it's safe to say that most of us really don't know what it's like to grow up as isolated and sheltered as people in the FLDS.
      Anyway, again, this is not to say that the women in the FLDS are blameless...I just think it's more complicated than saying, "How could they???"

      p.s. your mother sounds awesome

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    3. Oh the "your mom sounds awesome" was directed at Footupkodyass but you're mom is probably awesome too.

      Delete
  26. KD, What made you become an activist? If you don't mind me asking. I think it's awesome what you are doing.

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    1. Footupkodysass, I was horrified by what I witnessed in Mohave County. Until my arrival there, I believed there was no such thing as slavery in America. Now I know better. As I started researching polygamy worldwide, I discovered that the problems in the FLDS are common to polygamy everywhere, regardless of the religion of the practitioners. Elevated negative outcomes for women and children in polygamy are the same, whether under Smith or Mohammed. These include poverty, infant mortality, lack of educational opportunities for females, molestation, child marriage, depression, control of dress and restrictions on association and travel. Polygamy is the same, just like slavery is the same.

      As I studied the history of Mormon polygamy in America, I was also inspired by the original feminists of this country. Women like Susan B. Anthony, Harriet Beecher Stowe and Ann Eliza Young, who all were anti-polygamy activists as well as abolitionists and proponents of women's suffrage.

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    2. I loved reading Wife No. 19 by Anne Eliza Young. it's a 600+read online for free. man, she def gives some insight into Brigham Young's thieving and murderous ways. Very scary times back then under his mafia rule. Kinda like the Amish - how it looks completely different to the world but the inner workings/relationships on the inside can be quite another thing from outside appearances. She tells of how one of Brigham Young's own daughters committed suicide when he forced her to marry some old man as a plyg wife. She begged and cried for him to not make her do it out in the public streets even.

      Sadly, Anne Eliza Young was never able to get her kids out.

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  27. Hockey and Foot, you are both exactly right. Hockey, I was taught by Jesuits, Dominicans, and others. We learned about Natural Law. Some things are just wrong, period. And you know it. You don't have to be taught it. Killing is wrong. Messing with children is wrong. It doesn't take a religion to tell you that. And Foot, I would do anything for my puppies. I would not be a breeder because I can't stand to see them go. I have a list a mile long for the proper people for my borders and aussies. I turned down so many people. My interviews were beyond extensive. And the homes they got were wonderful. But I grieved anyway for every little precious life. And for someone to think I'd present my 12 year old to that pervert, or raise any daughter to be less than she could be, or raise a son to be kicked out, unschooled, because there were not enough women, well, think again. Life is so very precious. By the way, someone upthread wanted to know what Warren Jeffs does all day--I heard the jailers state he masturbates a good 50 or so times a day.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Border, What is Natural Law?

      Delete
    2. From Ency Britannica, "n philosophy, a system of right or justice held to be common to all humans and derived from nature rather than from the rules of society, or positive law." From Plato, Socrates, esp Aquinas, et al. Many laws, rules, religions, our Constitution are based on them. You know by being a human that it is necessary to eat and drink, but know inherently the harm of eating too much or too little, or drinking too much alcohol. Your body tells you. You know not to kill, but can use self-defense, or common higher good. Procreation is necessary, but the rape and enslavement of women and children cause them harm so you know that is not right. You just have some knowledge and it is common to everybody. It is born into you. You could google it and study it for years.

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    3. Border Collie,
      I agree that humans have an innate sense of certain rights and wrongs. Some of us have such a maternal instinct that we can empathize with animals whose babies are taken away or given away. I rescued four kittens and have had them all fixed because I know that if one of them had one kitten or ten kittens, I couldn't give them all away. I rescued a puppy from a puppy mill that the mother dog had rejected and the owner was going to let the puppy starve, I heard about it from a friend of a friend and I went and told the woman to give it to me and let me try and save it. I bottle fed it around the clock and even took it to work with me so that I could feed it. When it was old enough, I took applications from my friends before I gave it to one of them. I still check on that little puppy and would have kept it but I have four female cats that were not really going to treat a miniture chiuua (spelling yikes) well.

      I cannot imagine a woman who would let her own child be mistreated and those women who do it are not necessarily brainwashed. There are millions of men and women who abuse their children on a daily bases. Some even to the extent of it being considered torture. Children run away from home because of sexual abuse, mental abuse, physical abuse every minute. Every three minutes a little girl is molested and it is usally by a family member or close friend of a family member. Those women who leave the FDLS are the women who, like Carolyn Jessop, thought about their children. While religious indocritrination does have a strong hold on some people, I do not believe that it is all religious indoctrination that allows these women and men to subject their children to being married at an early age or being kicked out on the street. I cannot defend some of the men and women by saying, look what that religion has done to those people. NO. In all of us, we do have a sense of natural law and in all of us we do have a sense of self preservation…in these people, they allow it to happend. I believe there is a selfish gene that many of these people who allow their children to be sacrificed and that selfish gene puts their status and their happiness above that of their children and some of us have such an altrusic gene that we will not only sacrifice for our own children, we will sacrifice for other children.

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    4. Omg, does he really masturbate 50 times a day!? It just goes to show what kind of a sex perv he is. With that ku.d of drive, it makes me cry to think of what those young "wives" of his went through. :( Iam not farmiliar with jail rules, but wouldnt a guard repremans him for that conduct?

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  28. Everyone should read the link on K. Dee's post in read. Shows their aggressive persuasion and lying tactics. We all fib, ask forgiveness as you see fit (you own religion) being told to lie, I would be shocked if any preacher told me to do that. Those that can't believe why this happens, or why parents let their children go - I hope K. Dee explains it to us all well. My feeble explanation is that that are all so suppressed and believe that Warren is their GOD. You would be disobeying god. pure blasphemy.
    K. Dee, can you explain this? I know it's hard for many to understand, it's like a foreign language to us.

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    Replies
    1. Sorry, "in red"

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    2. CookieMonster,

      The key to the similarity of the AUB/Kody Brown form of polygamy and the FLDS form is exactly the same. Within human trafficking it is called "coercion."

      Coercion can take many forms. If I am a child molester I might coerce a child to continue cooperating and submitting to sexual abuse using the coercion of threats against someone or something the child loves, ie their parents, siblings, a friend or a pet. "Do this and they will be safe" or "don't do this and they will come to harm." Conversely, I might also promise some reward for cooperation ie "you will go to heaven." or in the case of Jerry Sandusky, "I will give you special access to football games, famous players or treats like trips and meals out." That is coercion.

      In the case of polygamy within the AUB and FLDS, children are raised to believe that unless they participate in "plural marriage/polygamy" they will be cast into outer darkness or what we commonly think of as hell.

      This amounts to spiritual coercion, because the target, specifically the female child, is raised to believe they can never get to heaven without submission to the practice of polygamy. Likewise, the male children are raised to believe they cannot reach the highest kingdom without at least three "wives." Unlike Christianity and Judaism, which believe there is no sexual activity or marriage in the afterlife, the Book of Mormon teaches that worthy men will spend eternity in the ecstasy of sexual relations with multiple women in order to populate new worlds. Joseph Smith was a great admirer of Mohammed, and I believe he took this bit of doctrine from Islam, and the 72 promised virgins of paradise.

      Brainwashed is an inappropriate term. Brainwashing is when I take you away and by controlling what you hear, eat, see or who you can associate with, change your thinking to bend to my will. There must have been some sort of ego structure in place beforehand that I change by manipulation of you and your environment.

      The members born into the AUB or FLDS are not brainwashed; they are programmed from birth. By isolating the children from birth from any other form of life or belief system, you can program them to believe and think as you do, especially by using spiritual coercion.

      The Browns say their children are free to choose but how truly free are they if they have been taught from birth that to abandon polygamy means they will go to hell? My personal belief is that because the Browns have cameras trained on these children they will do whatever is necessary to convince the world that polygamy is harmless. The Brown children in many ways are very lucky they are part of a TV show, because there is no way the adults in this family are going to reveal to the world that they believe their children will go to hell if they do not follow in their footsteps.

      Interestingly, if you watch the reaction of Robyn ins some of these episodes where the question comes up of their children possibly choosing to leave their faith, you can see the enormous emotional stress the idea puts on her. Likewise, Meri, who is constantly in tears, is the only one to have managed so far to have raised a child into her teens who plans to practice polygamy. In other words, so far, Meri is the most successful at spiritually coercing her child into compliance. I think she must be very proud that her daughter is the one teen in the family so far willing to submit to it. Likewise, regardless of what the other mothers say about their children having a 'choice' just looking at their worried expressions is enough to make you understand for these women, that choice is one of eternal life and death for their children. They cannot very well come out on TV and say what they really think, because it wouldn't look good for them at all. They know this.

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    3. Boots - yes, this is why i've always used the word "indoctrinated" instead of "brainwashed" here. there is a huge difference between the two.

      i also think it makes some logical sense that Mariah is the one who has no problem "choosing" already to continue in Mother Meri's footsteps given she's the only child of First Wife. She's not had to share her mom nor her dad when he comes for his stay at her house. Mariah gets to go over to her siblings home and enjoy that fun and then when she's had enough, she gets to go home and be only child again. The others have a completely different plyg experience than Mariah. Also, the teens know that Mariah's mother is the only legally one married to Kody. They know their moms are not and are "less than" and so are they in the eyes of the world as well as maybe even Meri and Mariah. I will be surprised if Mariah chooses anything but First Wife in her marriage. Unless Christine convinces her to that THIRD WIFE really is the cat's pajamas AS LONG AS you can be guaranteed there's NEVER a Fourth Wife!! HAH!

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    4. I specifically remember Meri saying that she didn't care if her daughter chose "no" religion. I know they talk out of both sides of their mouth and will say anything for the cameras, but this struck me as odd. As has been said before, when u really believe something, of course u want your children to follow. It made me think Meri isn't sincere about the religion aspect - only in it for Kody!

      Unfortunately, people do believe in some horrible things and want their kids to believe, like these crazy polygamists!

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    5. I think the kids are picking up on that-many don't seem that religious and will probably chose a more mainstream Christian path (both LDS and non-LDS) once they are adults. I don't see many Brown kids choosing to live polygamy.

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    6. Keeping It Real, the double-talk you mention is actually quite common across all Mormon sects, including the LDS. Mormons are big on dodging accountability about some of their odd and cruel beliefs by adding that people have "free will" or "free agency" to not buy into them. It's a passive-aggressive way for them to call you a sinner, in a nice way. Of course, they leave off that they believe that if you don't make the same choices as them with your "free agency", you're jeopardizing your eternal status.

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    7. "the Book of Mormon teaches that worthy men will spend eternity in the ecstasy of sexual relations with multiple women in order to populate new worlds. Joseph Smith was a great admirer of Mohammed, and I believe he took this bit of doctrine from Islam, and the 72 promised virgins of paradise."

      I don't mean to be nit picky here, but I've read the Book of Mormon many times, and I don't remember seeing that scripture.

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    8. @true blue
      I read Ask Mormon Girl's blog and she had a recent post about this topic, and polygamy. Here were two chunks that seem to back up the statement that men are widely believed to have multiple wives in heaven, and that women have to be married in order to get to the celestial kingdom. Note that AMG does not provide an actual scriptural reference, but being that she is a devout LDS, I trust her word on this to be true.

      "Because of scripture and policy, many mainstream Mormon people today—not the ultra-orthodox FLDS splinter groups of Colorado City, but regular everyday Mormons who look like Steve Young and Mitt Romney–fully expect that heaven will be polygamous. But they don’t talk about it.----
      And I have talked to plenty of Mormons who think that polygamy may be an unfortunate but necessary part of the eternities. Why? They cite two big unofficial reasons:

      There are more righteous women than men, and if we all need to be married to get to heaven (as per LDS doctrine), then it makes sense that one man may have to marry more than one woman.
      If our heavenly parents pro-create spirit children, polygamy would be necessary to create enough spirits to people a planet."

      Link: http://askmormongirl.wordpress.com/2012/01/22/im-pretty-sure-mormons-still-believe-in-polygamy-am-i-wrong/

      She actually goes on to say that she does NOT believe with her fellow LDS friends that women must have men or that there will be eternal plural marriage, but I greatly appreciate her willingness to talk about it and admit that it is part of the doctrine of the church of latter day saints (albeit one that some of the faith have varying opinions on).

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  29. I just want to say that there's a big difference between the Warren Jeff Crazies and the Brown Family. Marrying of children is wrong, sick, twisted and unfathomable. The Browns were all adults when they made the choice to enter into the marriage. They chose it.

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    Replies
    1. Kat, I agree. While many of us think the Browns make poor choices, the children seem well cared for and healthy. I know some people think that Christine and Janelle especially are too brain washed to think for themselves but this is a life they chose and while I think they are crazy, they don't and it's their life not mine.

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    2. Sure if you compare the Brown's circus with Warren Jeff's circus you see the Browns have less heinous crimes, and the kids seem better off. We can agree on that.

      However, if you compare Kody's institutional polygamy with the the norm in America, you see the same chasm of difference between the two things being compared. I think Kody's polygamy inflicts abuses on the females and children involved. I believe that because it is a "lifestyle" that is formulated and dictated by the religion, that institutional machine inflicts this abuse on all of its adherents.

      Finding something worse than a bad apple doesn't make the bad apple good.

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    3. Kat and SammyMom,
      I agree that there is a huge difference between the Jeff crazies and the Browns; however, just because the Browns do not send their daughters off to be child brides and just because the boys are not kicked out of the house when they become teens does not mean that the Browns are not practicing abuse. While there are different levels of abuse that range from physical to emotional and a whole lot of in between, to think that there isn’t abuse going on in the Brown family is crazy. If I said to a woman or a child who has been through a life time of emotional abuse and are still suffering from the pain of that abuse that their abuse wasn’t as bad as say sexual abuse, well, the woman or child may disagree.
      For example, I was raped when I was nine-years-old by my mother’s boyfriend and for some years later I had to practice escape strategies to avoid being a victim from him again. While I have a lot of trust issues and still have residual PTSD from that time in my life, it is nothing compared to my friend whose father emotionally abused her. The abuse that she suffered created such pain in her that as a teen she was promiscuous, a heavy drinker, and abused drugs. In her young adult life, she was emotionally detached from her children and suffered and still does suffer with bulimia. Today, she thinks that every message has a hidden agenda. No one is just nice and she reads something cynical in every verbal transaction that she has. She can no longer work and she is slowly starving herself to death. If I said to her, well, my abuse was much worse because a man raped me when I was a child, she would say, well, that doesn’t compare with a father who didn’t have time for me, criticized everything I did, could never hug me, and until the day he died never said, I love you. So, the Brown children, we know, are emotionally abused. To say that it isn’t as bad on them as the victims of the Jeff crazies, well, I think their pain, very real in deed, is no less or more than those victims. Abuse is abuse.

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    4. I don't assume that the Brown's kids are doing that well. The show keeps us from knowing much about them. We know that the oldest child has apparently been accepted to college, but little else. You would think that if these kids were accomplished, either the show or the Browns' social media would be trumpeting that fact. Do we know anything about their grades, talents, interests, goals...?

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  30. Hey everyone

    I was browsing on Netflix before and came about a movie called FOLLOW THE PROPHET. It is about a 15 year old being selected to become the bride of a prophet, and it is about polygamy. Within the first ten minutes of the movie the mother asks the daughter is she is wearing it (those FLDS undergarments) and also mentions KEEP SWEET.

    I am watching it now still, don't know how good it is, but probably worth checking out.

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  31. Seeing those pictures of Warren Jeff holding that child and kissing her makes me sick to my stomach. How can anyone allow that to happen to their children? And, in the name of religion to add insult to injury! I will never understand the people who eagerly follow people like Warren Jeffs or any of those branches that claim to be worshipping God in their own way. There really must be something "missing" in their brains.
    Stand up and stop allowing your kids to be abused!

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  32. K. Dee, do you know if the Browns are in hot water over doing the show, or looked on as the great helpers of the future with the lawsuits. Would Romney Sympathize?

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    Replies
    1. NOT to start another big convo over Romneny - question for K. Dee only!

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    2. The Browns have brought a federal lawsuit against the state of Utah, challenging their bigamy laws. They claim the laws against bigamy/polygamy/cohabitation have violated their "right to privacy." A decision is due from the court soon, as to whether that lawsuit can still go forward since Utah has not filed any charges against them.

      Indeed, the AG of Utah has stated emphatically that he will not enforce the federal or state laws against the practice of polygamy in Utah, and will only pursue charges if there is some evidence of abuse or other crimes.

      The Browns were selected by the polygamist community as the best family to challenge the law. I have a link to a story from 08 or 09 [well before the Sister Wives show, which is documented in my blog, that quoted Christine Brown telling a reporter that she would welcome being charged with the crime, so the law could be challenged. In other words, all their "panic" and leaving Utah for Vegas, over the possibility of being charged, was completely planned and staged before the show ever began taping. When the reporter asked Christine if she wanted to be charged her exact words were, "Bring it on!"

      I cannot speak for Romney but he has just appointed an open polygamy sympathizer to head his presidential transition team should he win the election. I am a conservative to the bone but because of this, I will be voting for a third party in the upcoming presidential election.

      Delete
    3. Great suggestion to read your insight into it! Will do!
      We have Christine saying that on tape, and other beginnings, here:
      http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/2011/06/christine-brown-pre-sister-wives.html
      http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/what-started-it-all-bbc-meeting-browns.html
      If I find more, I'll post them.
      K. Dee's blog, which we will be posting posts from, is here:
      Americans Against Abuses of Polygamy
      http://tripleap.blogspot.com/ and a post on the Browns (there may be more)
      http://tripleap.blogspot.com/2010/10/browns.html

      Delete
  33. K. Dee, thank you for all you do. Would you happen to have information about the girl in the photo? Did she end up living with polygamous relatives? I hope she can get away from these people.

    I'm generally not a fan of publishing photos of sexual assault victims, but in this case I think it was good to do so in order to demonstrate just how twisted the FLDS and Jeffs are. This girl was clearly not a "consenting adult".

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    1. She was given over to the custody of a polygamist relative. ALL of the children taken in the raid on the YFZ Ranch in 2008 were non suited and returned to the polygamists. This includes a dozen children who were the identified victims of abuse, according to Texas CPS.

      The man Romney has chosen to head his presidential transition team, former Utah Governor Mike O. Leavitt was the head of Health and Human Services under President Bush at the time. He is documented as having defended polygamy in the past. I believe that the pressure on Texas CPS to give all the children back, including those identified as victims of sexual assault, came from his office in D.C. at the time.

      A record number of Texas CPS case workers resigned after the raid, because they were so emotionally traumatized by the abuses the children suffered. Flora and I spoke with many CPS workers personally, who said the day they had to give the children back, they had to literally push some of them across the room to their abusers as they begged not to be made to go back.

      The decision was "political."

      You can read more about that in my blog post titled "Texas Heroes," here: http://tripleap.blogspot.com/2011/07/texas-heroes.html

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    2. I'd like to follow up on Leavitt's defense. Could you point me in the right direction? I live in a swing state and want ammunition. Thanks.

      Delete
    3. "Leavitt came under strong criticism in 1998, while Governor, when asked why polygamy is not often prosecuted, he stated he was not sure, however "it may fall under religious freedoms." He was later forced to backpedal and claimed that polygamy should be against the law.[3]" Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Leavitt

      You do also understand that Senator Orrin Hatch R-UT has previously defended the FLDS Church, having frequently visited Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona where he played the organ for FLDS services, right? On public record he claimed the polygamists there were 'wonderful Christian people,'and denied any abuses were taking place in the communities.

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    4. K. Dee, thank you for the info and the link. I'm simply stunned that, in light of those photos, the girl was returned to that pit. Seemed like a slam-dunk case for permanent placement elsewhere.

      Enjoying reading your site. You are a good seed.

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    5. Thanks Boots, for bringing up the topic of Washington's complicity in this FLDS mess.

      Jane--while you're gathering ammo, Re: Leavitt, add on his and Mitt's good buddy, Senator Orrin Hatch; he has publicly called his FLDS buddies a "great group of guys" and was "proud" to call them friends and neighbors. After a number of the "great group of group of guys" were charged as sexual offenders, he tried to back off his statement. He then jumped on the SafetyNet bandwagon, got them a s*** load of public funding, supposedly to help women get out of polygamy--and THEN allowed POLYGAMIST ADVISORS (including former accountant, Janelle Brown)to essentially control the finances. If it wasn't so sad it would be funny. That's why I don't vote for anyone--period. As long as our politicians are more worried about offending voters than victims, I have little trust in our system--including third party candidates. Anyone who gets that far along has friends with deeeeeep pockets.

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    6. Linnet - didn't know Hatch was in bed with Safety Net, or that Janelle was involved with the finances. Safety Net is a joke. It does NOT help women leave polygamy. It is involved in "sensitivity training" to help the public understand the polygamist "culture" (basically softening up for public acceptance of this nasty practice).

      Delete
    7. ExAUB I knew about Orrin Hatch's being an apologist since the time of the 2003 "flub" but I did NOT know about his hand in SafetyNet til last week. Its original intent was supposed to be purely an escape network--until they were allowed to blend with principal voices. Of course, it has since become a pro-plyg advocacy machine. Apparently Harry Reid's disgust with all of this, combined with the then-recent FLDS developments led to his 2008 introduction of Anti-Polygamy Task Force. It had a heavy emphasis on welfare fraud, child abuse and forced marriage--rather than just funneling out more cash to the plygs, as SafetyNet currently does. It was essentially shot down by the financial pressure of the LDS and the old boys crew of Utah-based state and federal politicians whose names come up over and over. Because the FLDS leadership was not invited to contribute to the hearing (many of their victims did give testimony), the "real Mormons" (Reid is a convert) said it would destroy the "relationship" and "trust" that was being forged between law enforcement and the polygamists. [Seems to me that by this reasoning, several serial murderers should apparently be consulted before any legislation about penalties for mass murder can be passed.] Anyhoo, If I can find all the articles again, I'll post a link next time it's relevant.

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  34. Any thoughts on the Browns? do you see them as good AUB, will he start his own church? seems they start splinters to be in control by me, I could be wrong.

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    Replies
    1. Lobotomized (Claddagh Claw)July 12, 2012 at 6:46 PM

      From what I am able to gather (but I am not close to AUB at all), the AUB church is not pleased with The Kody Brown Family Freak Show; I don't know whether it's because it makes their church public or because it is Kody.
      There are literally dozens and dozens of fundamental mormon splinter groups and I can see Kody starting his own AUB-splitoff movement.

      Delete
  35. K.Dee will answer all questions, feel free to ask her whatever you would like to learn about!!
    She does have time restraints, so please check back for your answer. We appreciate her coming here.


    Update on the Post about the Kitten and PETA below. Please post ANY replies to that on that post, not here. Thanks!

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  36. Interesting that this topic was posted, because I have been wondering whatever happened to Merrianne Jessop(the little FLDS girl in the picture. I've scoured the web, trying to find any update on her). That story broke my heart, and I wonder whether she became another Betty Jessop (Carolyn's daughter), who returned "to the fold", successfully brainwashed and re-integrated, even after tasting life outside.

    As an aside, how laughable it is for individuals to smear Romney because of his family's polygamist roots. ??? And..??? I think an even greater collapse of our economy is a much more dire, looming and far-reaching threat than a plig geneology. I don't endorse polygamy, but I DO endorse common sense and economic prosperity. Thus, I'm CERTAINLY voting for "change." Just sayin'.

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  37. Are the "religious" polygamists living in any other area of the country? You explaining all this to us certainly helps us become more aware how the Browns are so easy going. Like when Kody said, "Christine you are free to move or not move", when discussing the move to Vegas. Was that a passive aggressive threat, that she'd go to hell if she didn't follow her leader, Kody?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Lobotomized (Claddagh Claw)July 12, 2012 at 8:54 PM

      Oh yes - they are ALL OVER the US, the FLDS as well as other fundamental groups. Years before his arrest, Warren J. travelled all over the US starting (small) enclaves. There are also lots of "independents" all over the nation.

      Delete
    2. Polygamists are all over the United States. The largest group currently practicing polygamy in America are Muslim, with an estimated 50,000 of them practicing. Fundamentalist Mormons, like the Browns of the AUB, the FLDS, Centennial Park and Kingstons comprise another estimated 40,000 polygamists. There are an unknown number of independent polygamists, with fast growing groups within "Messianic" Judaism and some fundamentalist "Christians."

      They are all spiritually coercive.

      Delete
    3. Christine believes that Kody is essential to her eternal salvation. In the Mormon faith a woman is utterly dependent on a man who holds "the priesthood" to raise her into the celestial kingdom after death. Unlike Judaism or Christianity, there is no other mechanism for her eternal salvation. Either Kody reaches out his hand and says "well done my faithful wife" and she gets in, or he doesn't and she will be doomed to dwell in one of the lesser versions of heaven as a servant of the others or to outer darkness forever. There is no eternal salvation apart from pleasing a "priesthood head." When you are a child or are single, this is your father or another relative, and after marriage it is your husband. Yes, hell is for naughty wives and concubines.

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    4. Thank you for answering! God bless you K. Dee!

      Delete
    5. true blue mormonJuly 14, 2012 at 1:00 AM

      "In the Mormon faith a woman is utterly dependent on a man who holds "the priesthood" to raise her into the celestial kingdom after death."

      Just the clarify, I've never been taught this in the LDS church. It's possible this bit is specific to AUB and FLDS.

      Delete
    6. K. Dee, so men don't go to hell? WTF!

      Delete
  38. K. Dee, are the 4 houses to keep from the co-habitation laws? Therefore, technically not doing anything they will prosecute? Why do others get away with this?

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    Replies
    1. I think the four houses are a result of the windfall income provided by TLC, along with the desire of the concubines to have their own space. Remember, Kody is a control freak and has often said he would prefer to have his whole family under one roof. Finding a single home big enough for all of them would be a significant challenge, and somebody would end up with the master suite and somebody else would feel jipped.

      Nobody in Nevada is ever going to prosecute anyone on the basis of their perceived immorality, lol. The thing to remember about polygamy is that feminists aren't opposed to it because we're making some sort of moral judgement. We are opposed to it because hundreds of empirical research studies conducted worldwide show that polygamy is a human rights abuse of women and children. As a conservative myself I don't have much respect for the UN, but even the UN has declared polygamy a human rights abuse of women and children.

      Delete
  39. @anon 7:59 Typical emotional extortion, by my estimation. It was more likely just a "reminder" (veiled threat) that she would be completely alone, and that the rest of the family would be just fine without her around. It's not unusual for plyg men to have wives spread around the southwest; they just ignore the ones they don't care for at any given time. I doubt he would "divorce" her, since he has already fallen out of the good graces of The Priesthood. I had read in several places that Kody was told to do what he wanted, but the Group did not approve, BUT last week, I saw a quote from LaMoine Jenson that he himself specifically told Kody on 2 different occasions not to do this show--period. I think his apparent, burgeoning independent splinter might require his whole family to be together to keep the illusion of a family.

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    1. No offense, linnet, I'd like K. Dee's opinion. Jenson "says" he doesn't approve, yet they were hand picked, as has been pointed by many that the Browns were "chosen" to be the face of polygamy, and if you look at the post Mister Sister put up, http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/what-started-it-all-bbc-meeting-browns.html, you will see they had been in many a conference, and had Anne Wilde behind them. Christine would not go against Jenson. She's a blue blood AUb.

      Delete
    2. Still Not Drinking the Green KoolaidJuly 12, 2012 at 9:17 PM

      Ok, so I need help following this, Christine was instrumental in getting this show. She is a spokesperson for AUB. She is considered a "blue blood" in their community. So why then is Kody pi$$ing in her father's corn flakes? I don't doubt that they had an agenda. I am certain they want to play sweet on camera, even though that veneer is coming loose. But I would really wonder if there isn't a splinter. I would love to hear K. Dee's thoughts on that. I don't care what the Browns are selling, polygamy, ugly jewelry or green kool aid, I am still not buying any of it. Thank you again for this blog and all of the guest speakers/contributors.

      Delete
    3. Good question for Kdee, i'm interested, too!

      Delete
    4. Considering that the AUB is already in deep trouble legally for committing fraud and theft [see this link: http://polygamybooks.org/2010/04/16/virginia-hill-update--final-judgment.aspx ] I'm sure they want to draw as little public attention to themselves as possible. Remember, even though Utah rarely prosecutes the crime of polygamy, when too much light is shown on the roaches, the pressure from the outside starts to build up and law enforcement is eventually pushed [read embarrassed] into action.

      In my opinion, most of these fundamentalist Mormon splinter groups are actually nothing more than organized crime families all dressed up for church. This holds true for the AUB just as much as it does for the FLDS and the Kingstons. Whenever you have institutionalized abuse you'll most likely find other crimes as well. Whenever someone thinks they are above the law in one area, you can just bet that they feel that way about other areas as well.

      Kody and his family were very active with Plural Voices and the Safety Net. The leadership of all these groups have good reason to want to stay out of the spotlight. But I think Kody's innate narcissism makes him believe that G-d is leading him to restore Joseph Smith's real vision of America. Heck, for all I know he may think that he is "the one mighty and strong."

      I wouldn't for a moment count out Kody starting his own splinter group. The Mormon polygamists are already fractionated for exactly the same reasons. They believe in individual divine revelation, and everytime some yahoo gets a revelation from the L-rd he believes he is the one mighty and strong in Mormon prophesy. The AUB are a break off of the FLDS. The second warders known as the Centennial Park group are also a break off of the FLDS, as is Winston Blackmore's group in BC Canada....and the Kingstons. They are in effect Balkinized. If Kody can get his family's case all the way to the SCOTUS and get the court to overturn this country's laws against polygamy, he will have a big claim to be "the one mighty and strong," now won't he?

      Delete
    5. Lobotomized (Claddagh Claw)July 13, 2012 at 11:24 AM

      Is that why he likes to do manly man things? (Drinking WATER in a bar with his brothers)

      Delete
  40. Off subject, but i am currently reading the book "escape" by carolyn jessop. Does anyone know if she and robyn are somehow related? They look just alike!

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  41. I think Robyn's HUSBAND is a Jessop..I also read that book..fascinating..

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    1. my favorite part - when carolyn's dad told warren jeff's thugs (who advised him to keep sweet) "could you sweetly tell warren i said go to hell?"

      Delete
  42. K. Dee, what do you think the Browns make?
    Do you feel that TV has changed them?
    Taken them away from their church some?

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    Replies
    1. I don't know what TLC is paying them. I know Christine filed for bankruptcy as fast as she could when they got the show, so they wouldn't be stuck paying all her bills once the money really started rolling in. She was also on food stamp assistance before the show.

      Polygamy causes poverty for women and children, worldwide.

      I don't know if TV has changed them or not. I do think they honestly believe they are on a mission from G-d.

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    2. Boots, do the know the Blues Brothers?? LOL! "Mission from g-d"
      Sorry, just came to my head, these guys are such jokers with their revelations!

      Delete
    3. Isn't it a form of fraud, or at least, bad faith, that Christine filed for bankruptcy with knowledge that she was about to have a big chunk of change coming in soon? I assume she did not disclose the upcoming show in her bankruptcy filings.

      Delete
    4. YES, and they had been filming for months! Lies on the forms, also

      Delete
    5. I couldn't figure out how to choose a name to post under to clicked anonymous for now.

      I have so many comments and questions about the Browns I wouldn't know where to begin. I found this blog and have been reading off and on for day. I love how the mix of insightfulness and humor you all bring to the table. Now, for the show: I am only half way through season 2 and already just sick to my stomach. I started out really enjoying the show but then things just got too weird for me..I saw this thread and did want to comment about the bankruptcy though. That concerns me a lot..That is FRAUD...It's not just a little immoral Ooopsie but totally illegal (if I'm not mistaken). I honestly hope a bankruptcy court takes a hard look at those papers. When you file for a bankruptcy you have to SWEAR UNDER OATH that you do not foresee any change or increase in income in the foreseeable future. Um, TLC reality show..HELLO...Income increase...FRAUD...HELLO!!!

      Another thing I wonder about is if it's changed is their tithing. If I'm not mistaken I thought I read some where that they put tithing down on their bankruptcy papers so if they still tithed (isn't it 10%?), who do they give it to? Their group back in Utah? If so, they should be so lucky because I'm sure it would be enough to do some really great things for their church/members...

      I have more concerns and complaints but I'll save them for another post...
      Glad I found this forum!

      Delete
  43. This photo really makes me sick to my stomach!! Just horrible. It also breaks my heart to see that young girl being mauled by that freak.

    My question is this, I was always under the impression that we do have relgious freedom in the US, so long as that religion does not violate the laws of the land. Clearly, this particular religion practices child endagerment, child molestation and rape, so why are so many government officials so reluctant to prosecute them? The leaders of this "organization" are essentially given the freedom to practice their perversion with no legal ramifications.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Wow...been reading the comments the last couple days - wow.
    To tell you the truth I don't pay much attention to news - I'm more interested in history. So while I was certainly aware of Warren Jeffs and his ilk, and that he was sexually abusing women and children....I didn't know the depth of it.

    I started watching SW because I was a fan of the show Big Love - TLC marketed it as "the real life Big Love" I believe. Big Love of course is fiction, but as the seasons went on, you could see how being in the "lifestyle" adversely affected everyone - the jealousies, the lack of openness, the oppression - in both Juniper Creek and the Henricksens. I wondered why anyone would choose the lifestyle. Men or women.

    I know one of the "official" reasons that the Browns wanted to do the show was to demonstrate that hey, we are just normal everyday people and so on. Of course I have always suspected it was more financially motivated, at least for Kody.

    No wonder they are so quick to distance themselves from Warrenn Jeffs....they aren't so far from him. Sure maybe Kody isn't marrying children, but he is still oppressive - to his wife/concubines (love that) and his kids. He talks out of one side saying his kids will be free to live the way they want, but then in a blink goes stonefaced and stubborn that he's gonna do as much as he can to get the kids to be polygamists...he wants to control...I watch the show to see their implosion, because to me the adults are a bunch of grifters riding the reality tv gravy train...but now...a dark cloud surrounds them that they can never wash away.

    It's a shame that their fans who profess to love them so much don't know the truth about their faith/lifestyle. That they would compare it to same-sex marriage...the couples I know are loving and equal.

    I guess the Browns didn't know that when they brought polygamy out on tv that all the worms and rot behind their "happy" facade would be brought to the forefront - maybe that's why the AUB has distanced itself from them...

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    Replies
    1. We try to provide background to the cult/religion as we learn ourselves. K. Dee is an excellent source of knowledge, and if you look through our history, we have many stories.
      K.Dee's blog, which we will be publishing parts of is here.
      Very interesting and thought provoking:
      Americans Against Abuses of Polygamy http://tripleap.blogspot.com/

      Delete
  45. K. Dee, personally, I'd like to hear anything you have to say where you feel us posters here are misguided. Knowledge is power!

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  46. Check this out:
    1998 FLDS Run Alta Academy School Reader
    Eph on the Phone.

    Amazing.

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    Replies
    1. http://www.scribd.com/doc/97294941/Eph-on-the-Phone

      Delete
  47. I have been extremely enthralled with this "community"(more like cult) for the last few weeks. Reading in on anything I could find on the internet. I also read Elissa Walls book as well. I actually began watching Sisterwives since it began. I do enjoy it. I also have watched several documentaries on sisterwives. There is a much different life between FLDS and what the sisterwives of TLC are living. I believe grown adult women and men who consents to living in that lifestyle should have the freedom to choose so. Now that saying... I do not beleive in cult activity of plural/celestial marriage to those who are arranged, force, underage and have no rights at all as a human I DO NOT AGREE WITH!! When women do not have a say what-so-ever in what she does on a daily or in her life the NO.. This is not grown adults making life decisions on their own. That I see as a CULT! Also if you have noticed the polygamy couples who do make their own choices and look like any of us.. the husbands only usually have 2-3 wives, not 80! And they are are all relatively the same ages. That is my opinion. I am deeply hoping that in the next decade we can make a huge impact on the lives of women and children living a daily life of abuse and brain washing! Thanks for all you are doing!

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  48. I enjoy hearing from those that actually work with the families that are in need. I have learned these families are not so happy- and seem entrapped.

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