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Monday, July 23, 2012

Warren Jeffs chooses 15 to father future FLDS children, sources say

HILDALE, Washington County — Rumors are flying about a new edict that sources say was issued from a Texas prison by polygamous sect leader Warren Jeffs.
He has reportedly chosen 15 men to father all future children born to faithful members of his church.
Reports of Jeffs' new rules are second and third hand and remain unconfirmed by leaders of the Fundamentalist LDS Church. The reports are coming from outside sources who, in the past, have generally provided reliable information on the inner-workings of the FLDS Church. They acknowledge, however, that they have received only sketchy, unverified accounts.
Former FLDS member Isaac Wyler said he heard that the new rules were explained to lower ranking church members at a Sunday meeting two weeks ago. "They said there had been 15 men delegated or designated by God to sire the new, special children," Wyler said.
If the reports are true, it's one of the most bizarre twists yet as Jeffs attempts to maintain control over nearly 10,000 followers, most of whom live in the twin border towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz.
Late last year, Jeffs reportedly instructed his followers that sex was forbidden, even between married people, at least temporarily. That's because existing marriages in the group were considered invalid and needed to be re-solemnized by Jeffs himself.
Jeffs, however, is serving a life prison sentence in Texas for child sexual assault stemming from two young followers he took as brides. He won't be eligible for parole until he is at least 100 years old.
Now the faithful are apparently being asked to accept the resumption of sex, but only by a select few.
Private investigator Sam Brower, who wrote a best-selling book called "Prophet's Prey," said relatives of faithful members also told him about the 15-men edict. "These men are now breeding stock, essentially," Brower said, "and it's their assignment to breed with the women in town."
The new practices seem to reflect a sharp push toward hard work and rigid social rules in the group.
Last year, Jeffs banned most toys and recreational equipment. In Hildale and Colorado City, there are vivid reminders of that strict policy. Church leaders blockaded one set of basketball courts with huge bales of cardboard. At another court, they blocked it with fences and took down the basketball hoops.
"They did that because Warren doesn't want people playing ball any more, of any kind," said Wyler, who still lives in the community even though he left Jeffs' church several years ago.
According to the second- and third-hand reports circulating among outside critics, most men in the group will remain under the no-sex ban. Their wives, though, will be made available to the 15 chosen men.
Brower said husbands will become "caretakers" for their families, earning a living for their wives and for children fathered by others.
"The sex act itself is going to be a priesthood ordinance," Brower explained, "which is witnessed and carried out by these 15 men."
Please Read the rest at:  http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54315360-78/flds-barlow-leave-conference.html.csp)

 

I know that leaving would be would be scary if it was the only world you ever knew, and
had been told your whole life that the other people on earth were all evil monsters that were out to get you and should never to be trusted... You will find that's so NOT true. So many want to help you and see the world for yourself. If anyone is reading here and wants help, please know there are caring people prepared to help you. Contact Flora Jessop : brkway1@aol.com
Leave a message for Flora at (602)373-0793
Write Flora Jessop
P.O. Box 71038
Phoenix AZ 85050

(Courtesy of Desert News, Written by John Hollenhorst, clip: Ch 4SLC:)  

96 comments:

  1. Between this and the post below, personally I feel somethings really amiss. Jeffs obviously showing potentially even MORE bizarre behavior. Think about those people that this world is all they know. It truly scares me.

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    1. Makes me think of Jim Jones.

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    2. Interesting that Jeffs banned basketball. I saw a polygamy documentary recently that followed the Colorado City girls' basketball team as it traveled to another school to play a game. It seemed like traveling was fairly new for the team. Wonder if Jeffs got upset about the girls associating with non-plygs, so he banned all basketball?

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    3. I thought that girls basketball team was from Centennial Park, not Colorado City.

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    4. Wanna Bet: I think you're right that the girls were from Centennial Park. After a while, these polygamy groups run together even though they claim to be so different from each other. Reminds me of the shout-out at Rocky Horror Picture Show: "Same room, different color!"

      I just noticed in the article above that Jeffs "doesn't want people playing ball any more, of any kind", so apparently it's not just basketball that's affected.

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  2. I thought I was disgusted before... this is sick. If my husband was told that he had to "sire" children with other women.... I cut his b***s off and leave. I don't care what kind of religion you have... this is WRONG!

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    1. I agree!

      Why this man is allowed ANY contact with his followers is beyond me. With evidence he is continuing to endanger young women he should lose all contact with the outside world. Unconstitutional you say? He is continuing to commit crimes. Shut this man DOWN.

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    2. He wouldn't need his balls any way since Jeffs' has banned everyone from playing with them... any kind!

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  3. What a defective, declining, group of leaders that would enforce Jeffs' delirious rantings from jail. They are as sick or sicker to keep pounding down on these poor, profoundly undereducated, beat down members of this free society that are virtual slaves for the only religion known, never been on the outside, and now have to have sex with men that are not at least their spiritual husband?
    All this in one week from jail, why not lock him in solitary in a Washington, D.C. jail before the Kool-aid is poured again? We do have to wonder, what will be next? Here's a thought for any that get lucky enough to read or hear any news: GET OUT NOW AND RUN.

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    1. People aren't breeding stockJuly 23, 2012 at 12:01 PM

      Well, they probably would enforce the edict because they are some of the 15 "chosen". The cult is already having trouble with infant deaths/miscarriages/deformities due to inbreeding. Like this is really going to help THAT...yeesh.

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  4. I think they need to put Jeffs under special restrictions in prison, one being that he cannot communicate with the outside world except if he has to confer with his lawyers.

    It is ridiculous that this man is in prison for the rest of his life and still as a stranglehold on these people's lives.

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    1. Perhaps his lawyer is a vested member too who could act as his liason/messanger with the flock.

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    2. I was gonna say I wouldn't trust his lawyer ...

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    3. somewhere on you tube i saw that jeffs spent a crazy sum of money on phone cards. i do not remember the exact amount but it was mindblowing. he should be cut off totally....agreed funky town.

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    4. Sounds like the perfect solution to the Warren Jeffs problem. Let him fend for himself. See what it is like to be victimized. He would not last long at all. Good riddance.

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  5. This plus the tower thing... is completely crazy and bizarre.... I really just have no words to describe it.. build a tower and blow it up (test of faith?), no more toys, sports and fun and no more sex, except for the few selected breeding bulls. How is this going to work? Is this going to happen in church with everybody witnessing? All the women in line for their turn? What about STD's and infections? And the husbands knowing they have to pay for the kids of some other baby daddy.

    For me it is just bizarre beyond comprehension. The thing is, these people truly and completely believe that Warren J. is the prophet from God and everything he says comes directly from God. Not doing what he says is not doing God's will, for them. He also believes that himself. He has severe mental issues. Even as a child he apparently was brutal and thoroughly mean.

    "Warren Jeffs unquestionably is a psychopath,” said Brown who runs a Washington D.C. criminal profile agency. “He has been manipulating people for years. He is so highly narcissistic. He pretty much considers himself God that he should control everyone around him. That's a psycopath."http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story/Is-Warren-Jeffs-sending-a-message/cdJRAb-voES3BsBIAR8C4w.cspx

    It seems to me that since he's in jail, his power and reverence among his followers only got bigger. Like he is some sort of martyr.. I thought him being in jail would at least send his followers a message that something wasn't OK. Boy was I wrong.. Him being in jail has made him even more powerful, bigger and INSANE. I feel sorry for the people living in his community believing he is pretty much God himself.

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    1. I just googled Warren J in prison and saw it had been reported that over 1,000 people had been thrown out of FLDS lately for whatever reasons an insane man might have. How does the money work in FLDS? Warren, I think, has some sort of accounting degree and had lots of control over money. Didn't someone just publish on this blog that the state of Utah had appointed folks to figure out the finances? If one is kicked out, I would assume, that you lose all rights to FLDS property, monies, etc. Is that a reason for the congregation behaving like sheep? Starting over with nothing, a bunch of wives and a gazillion children would be more than tough--especially if your education/skill set consists of following directions and spouting dubious theology. The group may be well indoctrinated but surely they haven't all taken leave of their sanity!

      And do you think the pharmacy industry will be able to keep up with FLDS viagra needs for those 15 old goats? Warren may order but nature may send the birth rate plummeting! LOL I hope some gifted computer person will find out which 15 have been tasked and show us their pictures. Maybe, last year's pics and then 6 months from now.

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    2. Everything in that town belongs to their church, or in other words, belongs to Warren Jeffs. Most of the land in colorado city belongs to some sort of trust or organization from their church. In other words, a man, with the approval of the prophet can live there and build his house there, but it will alway belong to the prophet. If the man gets kicked out for whatever reason or no reason at all, he has no rights whatsoever and the house and everything he constructed now belong to the prophet, including his wive(s) and children.
      People will live there give pretty much their whole paycheck to the church. I have even heard of people that were kicked out and die to go back/still think they belong there and can get back/still believe in the prophet that still send their whole paycheck to Warren Jeffs... including people with social security pensions... That explains why even the people there that have good jobs (many have construction companies, among others) live on or below the poverty line. Use food stamps and whatever they can leech.

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  6. I was considering making a sarcastic comment about how well abstinence education has worked to prevent non-marital sex…

    But then I read the last paragraph of this post and realized that the people in these communities really do believe he should be obeyed and it’s the women who will suffer the most.

    Oh, to be free from the shackles of oppressive religion is my hope for these people and their children.

    Thank you for the post.

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  7. This is beyond a mad tyrant's ravings, beyond accepting a group's right to their "beliefs"......this is an abomination to women and to the children who will be born of this insane edict.

    Beyond the heinous marginalization of women to being nothing more than human breeding livestock, do they not acknowledge the very real and documented danger of inbreeding by the same fifteen men on the progeny of this madness?!
    Could an entire community that spans several states and locations be so brainwashed, even in these modern times??

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  8. This essentially turns FLDS women into religious prostitutes. No offense meant to Mormon readers of this blog, but when Joseph Smith said "That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another... Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire" he was providing a perfect setup for perversions. It opens the door for anything that some psycho in power imagines, and takes away any kind of moral compass. Explains what happened to those 12 year old girls too.

    The quote is from The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, p. 507-509, Dean C. Jessee editor.)

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    1. KodySonicStareGlareJuly 23, 2012 at 9:15 PM

      How sad. If you don't mind please explain how the AUB differs? Basic same beliefs, without the control and craziness?

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  9. Want to know something else sick? Meri Brown may say "we don't do weird" but I know that AUB has, in the past. Women sleeping with men who are not their husbands is not confined to the FLDS. There was a doctrine that women whose husbands were unable to produce children could sleep with another man to produce offspring (with the permission and appointment of priesthood leadership.) They used this "scripture" from the so-called "revelation" on polygamy to justify the practice. It says in Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants given by Joseph Smith, verse 41 "And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed." Evidently the key part is "appointed unto her by the holy anointing" which AUB leaders interpreted to mean that they could appoint a married woman temporarily to a man who is not her husband - solely to produce children of course! Fanny Stenhouse and her husband, who left Mormonism in the early days in Salt Lake, said they heard rumors that women whose husbands were away on missions were allowed a temporary husband till their real husband returned. When I was a believer I just thought they were rumor mongering, but after seeing what goes on in polygamy, I am more inclined to believe them.

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    1. Was is easy for you to get out like any threats to you? Did u have children? Were u allowed to take them? Lot of questions hope u don't mind. Glad u got out.

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    2. Thanks for asking 5th wife. Don't want to give details because I want to stay anonymous. No threats, but they are not above character assassination. I am very happy in my new life.

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    3. One who knows- I believe you want to remain anonymous because the things you said are plain and simply false. I would love to know what source that came from. So many things I have read on this blog about AUB simply make me laugh out loud. Rarely, I do mean rarely, is there any truth to them!

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    4. One who knows- I believe you want to remain anonymous because the things you said are plain and simply false. I would love to know what source that came from.

      Interesting argument, but being that you have not only chosen to remain anonymous yourself, you are certainly very quick to use insults.

      But you have brought up a good point.

      'One who knows', my understanding is that the AUB does not proselytize, yet you said "...Fanny Stenhouse and her husband, who left Mormonism in the early days in Salt Lake, said they heard rumors that women whose husbands were away on missions were allowed a temporary husband till their real husband returned". Isn't it true that Fanny Stenhouse died in 1904?

      So, I'm confused, 'One who knows'. You clearly must be writing of early LDS history, but why are trying to use it to justify your claim that the AUB, has gone weird in the past?

      I'm with Anonymous 10:39 on this. 'One who knows', you've said the AUB leaders have used D&C 132 verse 41 to justify their 'going weird' "...by appointing a woman temporarily to a man who is not her husband - solely to produce children." But your proof to support your allegation was something written by a woman who died almost 50 years before the establishment of the AUB.

      I've am currently reading 2 books written by women who have left the AUB, and strangely, none of them have mentioned this practice by the AUB.

      So, what is the true story here 'One Who Knows'? Have I misinterpreted what you wrote? Can you provide actual proof of what you claim about the AUB?

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    5. Thank you Cynical Jinx for at least being willing to take an honest look at this. I really think that there should be proof of these things, not just something that has gone around the rumor mill. I know, MYSELF, that this is not true. I do also want to say that I am appalled at the things that Warren Jeffs is guilty of. And I believe there is plenty of proof to back it up. I am also appalled by Kody Brown and his actions although, to me, they pale in comparison to Warren Jeffs. And you have a valid point about my choosing to post anonymously. I, however am speaking the truth in my post. Also, I do not believe I was insulting in any way. When you know that someone is not being honest it is fair to call it.

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    6. CJ curious which books are you reading?

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    7. anony 10:39 ---looks like we have an AUB member reading here!

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    8. I got a Kindle Fire a couple of months ago so I went crazy buying e-books. Here's what's in my Kindle Library:

      Church of Lies...Flora Jessop
      Daughters of Zion...Kim Taylor
      Escape...Carolyn Jessop
      Favorite Wife...Susan Ray Schmidt
      Fifty Years in Polygamy...Kristyn Decker
      Keep Sweet:Children of Polygamy...Dr David Perrin
      Love Times Three...The Dargers with Brooke Adams
      Secrets and Wives...Sanjiv Bhattacharya
      Shattered Dreams...Irene Spencer
      Stolen Innocence...Elissa Wall with Lisa Pulitzer
      The Women of Mormonism...Jennie Anderson Froiseth
      Under the Banner of Heaven...Jon Krakauer

      and of course, Sister Wives...Kody Brown and wives

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    9. Cynical Jinx: thanks for the reading list. I have read five of those already and will now read the others. Is there a book written by someone who converted into the FLDS or some other polygamous Mormon group, and then left? The books I have read, such as Church of Lies, are by homegrown FLDS who left the group. The FLDS had converts prior to 2000 when they still did missions. I'd like to know what would motivate a person to convert into that faith considering the bad press the group gets. Perhaps an outsider who grew up in a small, fractured family in a large city would think that the big families and small-town feel of Colorado City are appealing, if he or she does not know the full story of how the FLDS operates?

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  10. How far these people will go? Like Anonymous 7:18, I too am worried about what will happen if and when he gives the "kool aid" orders. There is a tragedy looming with so many people blindly following this nutcase. They need to cut him off from the outside world completely.

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    1. They l do _anything_ he says. Kicking out lifelong members for no reason, underaged boys, killing all dogs & pets, getting rid of anything the prophet deems not OK... I wonder if they'd kill someone (a disobedient young girl now wanting to marry??) if ordered? Would they blow up things? Charles Manson comes to mind.

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  11. Peanut Butter FritosJuly 23, 2012 at 2:13 PM

    Flora is so brave, and she was all over this guy and this whole messed up situation long before it was cool. I am just amazed at how brave she was and continues to be. She has really been inspiring to me.

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    1. I so second that. Amazing Woman that puts her life on the line everytime she works.

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  12. Im ex lds and although im out i do have to say something. The mainstream morman church is not any way like rhe flds. I left the church for personal reasons. Thi group fillowing warren jeffs is a cult. It in no way remotely similar to the mainstream church. My question is why is warren jeffs allowed contact with the people at yearning for zion ranch? How is he allwed enoigh freedom in prison to send the church "commands". I dont understand it. I too believe rhis group will go the way of waco or jim jones. If all contact between jeffs and the leaders of the ranch were elimanated i believe rhe group would crumble as tons of men tried to become the new prophet.

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    1. Thank you for telling us, I can only speak for myself, but believe LDS don't follow it on earth but do in the afterlife. But didn't your LDS church only flip out of the FLDS when it became illegal?

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    2. My cousin belongs to the LDS. The LDS does not want any association with any of the fundamentalist morman groups. However my cousin has said to me on more that one occasion that the LDS has plans to go back to plural marriage when it becomes legal. I found this really perplexing since the LDS banned plural marriage over 100-years-ago. My cousin quoted some mormon scripture. I can't remember the exact wording, because these conversations with him took place several years ago. However, the gist of the scripture was something about living or doing certain things at an appointed time. He said right now GOD wanted LDS to practice monogamy, but when plural marriage comes legal, the LDS will go back to plural marriage. Of course I found it a bit humorous that GOD would need Congressional approval, but I didn't want to insult him. He takes his religion very seriously. He was having some serious health issues, so I didn't want to upset him.

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  13. I hope that Jeffs has really shot himself with this one. The main advantages of polygamy for men, as far as I can tell, is that the men get to enjoy multiple sex partners and see their genes replicated dozens of times. If you're telling some guy that he has to put up with the hassles of multiple wives but not enjoy the advantages, I think he's likely to walk.

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    1. Maybe that's what Jeffs wants. At least 15 men will still have the polygamist dream, multiplied at least a hundred fold. Love is to be multiplied not divided, and of course, Love times 500. LOL

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    2. I'm not even so sure that the chosen 15 men are all happy about the situation. I suppose some men would consider this a dream, but other men would consider it pretty repulsive to be ordered by a creepy pedophile in prison to have sex all day with females they don't get to choose, including underage, unwilling and unappealing ones. Even Ron Jeremy would have problems keeping up with the volume that Jeffs seems to be demanding of these 15 men.

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    3. Those guys had no say. They were just appointed. Now they have to OD on viagra and pray they don't get a heart attack, can keep it going and don't catch any STDs... And that none of these 1000s of women are going to sue for child support!

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  14. Why is this sick man allowed on phones. If he is in prison and they can't stop him, what are they going to do. Best thing I can think of is put him in population & turn their back, let inmates take care of him. Not a proponent of violence but thats the best I can think of better then theses women getting rapped. By 15 men

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    1. Exactly!!!!

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    2. 5th Wife: I saw a show on Erik Menendez and his wife that mentioned that the Department of Corrections marks up inmate telephone calls by 650%. It's a huge moneymaker for the prison system, so I wouldn't be surprised if the system is overly lax with who gets phone privileges.

      Jeffs did have his telephone privileges suspended for 90 days earlier this year when it was determined that he was preaching to his congregation via a speakerphone at the church. He has a list of "only" 10 people he can call.

      http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/03/justice/texas-warren-jeffs/index.html

      I think the last thing you want is for Jeffs to be in the general prison population. Inmates are often eager to try new religions, and you don't want Jeffs taking advantage of that. If Jeffs did get murdered in jail, he'd be viewed as a "martyr" as the LDS view Joseph Smith, who died in a gunfight while in jail. No telling what the FLDS will do if their prophet is "martyred".

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  15. I dont think he would send out the "Kool-aide" order because he would have no one left to obey his commands. It takes a village to raise a narcissist. If he were to order the destruction of his cult then he would no longer have any power. He derives the same sick pleasure from every "test" of devotion he puts these people through.

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  16. All great points. Can't imagine the hell those folks are going through right now. I shakes me to the core.

    When posting, please, except only occasionally, do not make it a conversation between you and another person. -

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  17. All I can say is OMG OMG this Jeffs man is one sick puppy!!!

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  18. What a waster of human resources, money, time, etc. Clearly, he cares nothing for his people. Many live with no water or bathroom, out alone, and the only visitors are the husband to collect her monthly stipend and food card. WHY, oh WHY are officials letting Jeffs communicate with anyone? The govt. could easily stop him as a threat. The USA does not take care of itself. How can we push leg. into action? maybe K Dee or Flora might come tell us. That would be great.

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    1. I have the same question, why does the govt, prison system, etc., talk to anyone? Easily abolish that mess.
      Total threat to society. Being lenient with polygamy has been great, just great.

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    2. wetandstickyundiesJuly 24, 2012 at 12:15 AM

      I am wondering if prison officials CAN put a stop to all the communication, or is it considered his contitutional right?

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    3. PLEASE pick another name! thanks!

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    4. Yes!!!! Please do! That is nauseating!

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  19. Hoped to see some of the Ex FLdS posting on this, but assume they might be afraid to? Very interesting. Going to have to think on this one.

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  20. I found a link for Sons of perdition.. It is sickening and all I want to do is cry. those poor boys.

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  21. Hi Mister Sister - I posted some details about surprising AUB practices. It didn't make it onto the board. Should I re-send, or was it something you don't want to post?

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    1. One Who Knows, when I got on it was in our spam box. I don't believe moderators did it, (google blogger can be picky) and believe it landed there from posting. I posted it awhile ago, and all is well!

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  22. Where he's sitting right now he has nothing to lose. He can bark orders and make changes that will never affect him where he's at. He can harm these people in the worst ways as long as they blindly follow and he will not suffer any consequences worse than his life in prison that he's already serving. Why don't the authorities cut the lines of communication?

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  23. Anyone thought as to how this will affect their gene pool?

    Why is he allowed to communicate?!

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  24. Can they not shut that man up? Can he not be punished to the hole or something and kept from anybody and any outside corresponance? The prison doctor should just drug him into a silent drooling stupor for the rest of his stay there so that he truely can cause no more harm. Geez...I mean he is supposed to be locked up to protect folks from him right?

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  25. Hey--has anyone else seen this article?
    http://www.elle.com/life-love/society-career/my-father-was-a-polygamist-609556?src=sem&mag=elm&dom=out
    How is the author related to Christine Brown--half-sister???

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    1. Dorothy Allred Solomon's father was Rulon C Allred, who was Christine Allred Brown's grandfather. So they are not half-sisters.

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    2. Anyone here also suspects that Kody thinks/feels he is the one mighty and strong?

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    3. Only if there's a television film crew to document his balding head getting bigger and bigger.

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    4. Lobotomized-Kody doesn't seem that concerned about the religious teachings of his faith (Christine seems the only adult that keeps their religion). I think he's only in it to have sanctioned multiple relationships with more than one woman.

      I think Kody chose polygamy because he has thin skin-a paper thin fragile ego. In hs people thought he was gay, so he went into hypermasculine overdrive-being involved with multiple women at the same time, his antics in the MMA ring in Las Vegas, the shooting ranges, the semi-automatic weapon. Also, his overwhelming need to tell complete strangers that he's a polygamist with four wives (florist, tour guide..) Everything he does seems to smack of "yeah, look at me, I'm such a stud."

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    5. From now on, please reply to that person's post. Thanks!

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  26. Brent Hunsaker, Ch 4 Salt Lake City, has a blog I enjoy. I will be posting any polygamy related here. Since this had already been posted, here's his thoughts on this from his blog:

    Sexual Bait 'n Switch:
    You want to know what's really, really sick about all this?
    Before Warren announced his Super Sperm Donors, I am told his top leaders were pulling a sexual bait and switch.

    Here's how it worked: When Warren first ordered all sex to cease, husbands and wives who wanted more children had to apply for permission. If approved, my sources tell me they would be instructed that sex was an "ordinance" that could only take place in certain locations and with witnesses.

    It was the same pattern Warren established before his arrest when he was marrying underage girls and then bedding them in the FLDS temple in Eldorado, Texas.
    Anyway, if the couple agreed, they were told when and where.

    That was the bait, my sources say the switch happened when the couple showed up at the appointed time and place. Only then were they told, "Sorry, but you're not to be the father, husband. This man here will be fathering a child with your wife. You are to stand as a witness."

    "Sick" doesn't begin to describe how I feel about that.

    Brent has 2 other blogs from May- June on his blog: http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/blogs/brenthunsaker/default.aspx

    They are: Brent's blog - Warren Jeffs predicts war on American soil
    Brent Hunsaker - Has Warren Jeffs had a change of heart?

    Any new ones we will be posting!

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    1. Thank you MS. I am checking his blog out right now

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  27. I think both this article about the "Big 15", and the bait and switch story, were discussed on this blog well over a month ago. I could have read it in my own readings, though. I'm a big reader in general--and read oooodles of random articles--sometimes things get repetetive and I forget where I saw them. Doesn't make either of them any less disgusting, though.

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  28. To me this whole idea of only having 15 men procreating would eventually lead to the death of this cult, simply because there is the point when one man is related to the majority of the woman (as a blood-brother, as a blood-nephew, as a blood-cousin, etc). I just finished reading Carolyn Jessop's first book (can't wait to read the second) and the massive amount of intermarriage is simply terrifying. Plus with the amount of sons and husbands who have been excommunicated over the years, how is this cult going to survive...!?! Especially when you have 17 year old girls married to 88 year old men and the marriage is never consummated and then they are simply passed on to a 70 year old man, who already has 80 wives and suffering from dementia.

    On a side note: the only reason I can come up with for the prison to continue to allow Jeffs his phone calls is in hopes of maybe catching other members of this sect for crimes (calls are monitored and can be used as evidence).

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  29. Hi I'm replying to Cynical Jinx and others here, because I can't get the "reply" link to work for some reason. I am responding to queries about what I wrote concerning previous AUB practices of a man being assigned to sleep with a woman whose husband could not provide her with a child. Sorry if I confused anyone. First, I mentioned the Stenhouses to indicate this may have been an historical practice. You need to understand that Fundamentalists look to early LDS leaders as the source of all truth, and justify their practices by what these men did. Second, this practice is not used now in the AUB, but was in recent memory. Third, most AUB members are not even aware of this practice. As for "proof" all I can say is that I was told about this by several AUB members in high standing, (who are still faithful members) and they had no reason to lie to me. I'm sorry you may believe that I'm making it up, but I have a personal habit of trying to be accurate about what I say, with no exaggeration. I believe that the majority of AUB members, if they were told about this practice, might be pretty horrified too.

    AnonymousJuly 24, 2012 10:39 AM said

    "One who knows- I believe you want to remain anonymous because the things you said are plain and simply false. I would love to know what source that came from. So many things I have read on this blog about AUB simply make me laugh out loud. Rarely, I do mean rarely, is there any truth to them!"

    My question to anon is, what exactly have you read that is false, that you find so amusing? I think you should speak up if you have personal knowledge. Other ex members of AUB comment on this board about truths and specific inaccuracies, (including things like rumors about supposedly nude marriages). I would sincerely welcome hearing from you, and by the way, if wanting to retain my anonymity makes me a liar, what is your rationale for posting under the name "anonymous."

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    1. "You need to understand that Fundamentalists look to early LDS leaders as the source of all truth, and justify their practices by what these men did. Second, this practice is not used now in the AUB, but was in recent memory."

      Funny you should bring this up. I remembered something Flora Jessop wrote about in her book, Church of Lies. Here's a quote concerning her father's brother, Fred Jessop:

      But Uncle Fred had one fatal flaw in the eyes of the FLDS: he was sterile, due to a childhood case of mumps. His first wife, Lydia, was childless. Not one to stand still and mourn her fate, Lydia became a midwife who delivered most of the babies born in the twin towns. Fred was also married to Maryett, Permilia, Susan, and Martha. Because Fred was sterile, my dad gave him seven of my sisters at birth to raise as his own—he wanted only girls. Martha Ann, Patricia, Maryett, Mable, Joellen, Mildred, and Annie were all taken from my mother as newborns and handed over to Uncle Fred. It broke my mother’s heart, but she did it because my father commanded her to do so. Eventually, Uncle Fred would claim fatherhood for more than a hundred children.

      Jessop, Flora; Brown, Paul T. (2009-01-08). Church of Lies (p. 35) John Wiley and Sons. Kindle Edition.

      Here is a case where Uncle Fred remedied his sterility by NOT inseminating his wives with other men's seed, but rather, by collecting the children (in this case female)of his half brother -- Flora's father.

      So again, I'm left to wonder. If Fundamentalists, as you say, "look to early LDS leaders for sources of all truth", why weren't the men being lined up to service the fertile wives of Uncle Fred, who was supposedly a high ranking and wealthy member of the FLDS?

      And since the AUB was established in 1954, recent memory would be less than 57 years old. So even if this was an actual practice, wouldn't the current members remember that poor Uncle Ogden got the mumps and was sterile but somehow sired 40 children between his 5 wives and tell others about this miracle?

      Like that old saying goes, If it doesn't gel, it ain't aspic. Your assertion that the AUB 'does do weird' by having men impregnate women who are not their wives is not geling, at least not for me.

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    2. CJ. I'm only passing on was was told to me by what I consider good AUB sources. If it's not true I have no idea what they would gain by making it up. Just have to agree to disagree on this one.

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    3. It's not a matter of agreeing to disagree. It's one of being able to substantiate a bold statement like "the AUB does do weird" with something more than "this is what I was told".

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    4. Although horrifying as itis, taking a brand new baby away from its mommy, it is not as sick as having other men inseminate your wife in order to have children.

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    5. Why the comparison? Both options are intolerable.

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    6. We;d love to hear what your thoughts are on this, and the past 3 posts, and your thoughts on What the AUB does do that they say they do not. MAybe write us a post?

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    7. Troy, there has been talk on this blog about if the AUB members stay strictly with their mates, or possibly, say if the man can't have children, have another father his children. Or in any way go weird, as Meri says on the show. Any truth to that?

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  30. My parents were in AUB in the 70's A man by the name of John Whittman Ray was very propionate in the group at the time. He told my father that to prove his loyalty to him, he should be allowed to sleep with and sire a child with one of my fathers wives.

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    1. Well there you go. I believe that is a "real" source of information. What a messed up religion it is. To have to let "someone" have sex with your wife. Doesn't matter if he had 1 or a dozen, those were his wives and intimate relations for whatever the reasoning be, should not be made to share with a person of power just because he said so.

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    2. I knew John Whitman Ray. I hadn't heard this about him, but it would be mild compared to some other things he's done, like his exodus from the AUB, leaving behind 12 wives and about 65 children. My dad married one of Ray's abandoned wives.

      John Ray was the quintessential deadbeat dad. And he was intelligent enough to snooker a whole bunch of people, like my own parents. He converted my parents to Mormon fundamentalism, and then took their life savings.

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  31. I think it's pretty reflective of larger theological problems within a religion when they start enforcing suppression of biological urges for members (rather than having it be an option, such as celibacy for Catholic priests). There is an interesting article on involuntary celibacy here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_celibacy

    (Not 100% related to this situation but details some of the psychological and social problems that arise from involuntary celibacy).

    All living beings have some degree of biological urge to procreate. It's one thing to voluntarily become celibate, such as Shakers or Buddhist monks, but it's quite another to have a religious leader dictate that a large percent of the population become celibate regardless of their personal wishes on the matter. I do not see this happening and would assume that there is still a lot of "behind closed doors" sexual activity between wives and husbands.

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  32. I am struck by the similarities between Warren Jeffs and Joseph Smith. And the similarities are NOT good.

    Both had strong control over their followers. Smith moved them across the country through new frontiers, Jeffs kept them in squalor to build up and tear down what they had built. Both practiced sexual deviance with whoever they wished: Smith bedded other mens wives and Jeffs does the same by proxy via the fabulous fifteen.

    They both appear to have succumb to the delusion of absolute power and abandoned shame and conscience...Smith's followers with Mountain Meadows Massacre and Jeffs followers in trouble with the Justice Department for institutionalized abuse.

    Smith ended up in jail also. What mischief might he have wrought among his followers from behind bars had he lived?

    Critical thinking people! Don't accept blindly. You were given the powers of reason on purpose.

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    1. Joseph Smith was dead when the Saints went west. Brigham Young was the leader during the trek west and Mountain Meadows massacre.

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    2. Ah, that is even more to the point. It was not just one individual, Smith, who exerted extreme control over a people that blindly obeyed him. It was his successor(s) as well, even on down to Jeffs. And if this was the spirit of the origins of Mormonism, it stands to reason that this mindset would permeate all the different variants, LDS, AUB, etc etc.

      Jeffs is reviled by the non-FLDS Mormons, but their common beginnings are very similar to what Jeffs practices today in many ways.

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  33. Just when one thinks that Jeffs can't top himself in coming up with bizarre edicts, he manages to out do himself once again. I find it particularly horrifying that he still controls these people from prison. I am very worried for these people. I can't remember his first name, but wasn't it Irene Spencer's ex-brother-in-law who ordered Rulon Allred, among others, to be killed? Not that anyone would ever be able to figure out Jeffs thought processes, but what could he possible have to gain by picking 15 men to be the only sires of future children? I tremble to think what he might think of next. And, this business about having witnesses to the 'act' is too mind bogglingly disgusting for me to fully comprehend.

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    1. Yes, Ervil Lebaron Had Rulon Allred killed but two of his wives actually did it. He also had his brother joel killed and tried to have his brother Verlan killed as well as others. He was into Blood Atonement.

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    2. And, that's what worries me. Jeffs is even crazier than Ervil LeBaron. I not put it past Jeffs to order blood atonement.

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  34. Paw print: very good comparisons. In Smith's time, the Mormons were constantly moved around because they kept wearing out their welcomes with their criminality. After several moves and arrests, they took the hint that Mormonism was not ready for prime time, and Brigham Young moved them out west to a desolate area. Similarly, the FLDS and Jeffs have been shrewd to stick their communes in rural areas so that there won't be nearby residents to provoke.

    The remoteness of both the early LDS settlements in Utah and the current FLDS communes also presented the advantage of preventing the young residents from leaving easily. There is no subway train going by the YFZ Ranch that an abused girl can use to escape.

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    1. Please give a citation on the criminality of the Saints as cause for their moving. I'm honestly curious.

      Nauvoo wasn't remote. A thriving settlement of Commerce was already there, as was other settlements just across the Mississippi.

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    2. Intorainbowz: You are correct, Nauvoo was not remote. It was after the "Saints" wore out their welcomes several times in developed areas, including Illinois, that they took the hint and moved to then-remote Utah.

      Brigham Young agreed to take the Mormons out of Illinois. Among the locals' complaints about the group were counterfeiting money and other financial scams, destroying a printing press that wrote negatively about them, polygyny, and sexual relationships with girls who were underage even by the standards of that time.

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  35. Prison calls are always monitored. My guess is that either they can't break his code, or he's paying crooked jail officials to use a cell phone, which is a huge problems in the prison system.

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  36. Are people still worried that the FLDS have been denied their religious freedom? If you ask me, they've never had such a thing. Freedom of religion is tri-fold. First there is ordinary freedom of religion, wherein we are free to choose our religion, but there also exists freedom from religion. Still, there's one aspect of freedom of religion that gets ignored too frequently. We all have freedom IN religion.

    That is, unless you're in a polygamous cult. Then likely this isn't even coherent.

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    1. Troy should know. If you are new to the blog, he has written for us and answered questions. He grew up in the AUB, left when he was 17.

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